Episode 5 Season 4
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Maiya: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Beyond the Verse, a poetry podcast brought to you by PoemAnalysis.com and Poetry+, we have a very exciting episode in store today because we are talking about what makes a poet laureate. Now, the person we're focusing on today going Simon Armitage, but we'll be talking about the poet laureate position, who Simon Armitage is and how he became the poet laureate and also poetry's place in society. So it is worth flagging. Today we'll be talking about the UK poet Laureate position, which Simon Armitage has held since 2019. However, Scotland and Wales do have their own poet laureate positions as well. But as we're focusing on the UK today, Joe, would you like to tell us a little bit about how the poet Laureate position kind of came into play? Where it came from, how it developed, and just a little bit of history for us?

Joe: Yeah, I'd love to. So, as Maiya mentioned, We're focusing on the UK today. There are many, many other national traditions in different countries in Europe and beyond. [00:01:00] But for ease and for kind of keeping this episode to a reasonable length, we're gonna focus on the UK. Now, obviously there have been all kinds of poets that have held national patronage who have been sponsored by members of the aristocracy, indeed, the royal family over the centuries.

But really when we're talking about the establishment of the modern office, the term of the poet laureate that we use today, we're looking at the 17th century. So some people go all the way back to 1616 where James I gave the poet and playwright Ben Jonson, a pension. But the, modern iteration of the poet laureateship really comes into being in 1668.

When Charles II appoints John Dryden as poet laureate, he was paid in wine. And that's a theme we're gonna come back to later on. and effectively what this post is, is the idea that this poet should initially celebrate the royal family, write kind of poems of praise for the King.

There was an early tradition in which the poet laureate would write poems to commemorate the Monarch's birthday and that sort of thing. It's very kind of insular. It's for a relatively small section of society. It's for, courtiers, [00:02:00] lords, ladies, aristocracy and members of the royal family.

The role gradually evolves over the centuries as we're gonna explore and really, I suppose. the most important figure in the development of what we now think of as the modern poet laureateship was Alfred Lord Tennyson, who was the longest serving poet laureate. He served for 42 years between 1850 and 1892. He was so revered that actually nobody took up the position for four years after his death. As a kind of mark of respect to Tennyson, we've actually already done an episode on Beyond the Verse where we talked about Tennyson's ‘The Charge of the Light Brigade’, and really him as a figure.

But also that poem, I think really shapes our perception of what the poet Laureate is meant to do. It's no longer just a position about, celebrating the Monarch in a very insular way. It's about capturing the mood of the nation. It's about shaping the mood of the nation, commemorating important events, the deaths of important figures, important battles like the Light Brigade. Tennyson also wrote a poem ‘Ode on the Death of the Duke of Wellington’. So there is this sense that the poet Laureate has moved. outwards from the center of power and is now more interested in [00:03:00] speaking to the nation as well as talking about the nation. And that distinction is gonna become really clear and really important as we get into the 20th century.

So back to the history in 1999, the poet laureateship stopped being a term for life previously. Poets had held it until they died and it then became a 10 year term and with Andrew Motion being the first poet to serve under the new 10 year limits.

And of course, as Maiya mentioned earlier on, we have Simon Armitage now as the current poet laureate who started in 2019. And before him we had Carol Ann Duffy, who was the first woman ever to hold the position between 2009 and 2019. So that's very much a kind of a whistle stop tour of. The poet laureateship and how it's evolved in very broad terms.

But before we get into Simon Armitage’s career itself, I'm very curious, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this, about what the poet Laureate kind of represents when it comes to poetry and its role within society. How do we, as lovers of poetry, as observers of poetry view this role? What kind of poets occupy the position and what does that say about the poetic world more generally?

Maiya: That's a really good [00:04:00] question. I think one of the ways that we ought to consider a poet laureate is not just a cultural innovator, but a cultural figurehead. Now they are so prolific, they're so popular, they are publishing, hundreds if not thousands of poems, and they are deciding what is important to talk about. Now they, with their 10 year terms, are covering a huge variety of topics. I mean, you are looking at, wars that are happening at the time, political movements, political changes, constitutional moments. Simon Armitage, as we'll go on to talk about, had to cover the death of the Queen. So these are huge moments that the poet Laureate is expected to comment on. So, to a point, there's not been a full, you know, detachment from that courtly aspect, because it still feels to me like a royally appointed position. It does feel, at least in the UK, like there is still some tie to the monarchy because of course after the Queen's death, Simon Armitage also then had to cover the coronation of King Charles. So we have this idea that the poet laureate is [00:05:00] tied inherently to the state, but I do find it really interesting that there are departures and Simon Armitage I think is one of the really great examples of how to use that position as a kind of leverage to really drive forward new conversations.

I mean, Joe, I know that when we were talking before this podcast, when you were doing your research, there's some really interesting things that Simon Armitage is actually doing during his poet laureateship that really set him apart from those courtly poet laureates that we've seen before.

But I'd love to know your thoughts on how that is tied in. Like do you think it's a state position or do you think it's something separate?

Joe: Well, it's a really, really interesting question, isn't it? Because I think, you know, you and I have, you know, lovers of poetry we read very broadly, and one of the things that I really love about poetry is its ability to push boundaries. Its ability to, both in terms of subject matter, but also in terms of style to be formally innovative, but also to be counter-cultural, to challenge established narratives.

And yet, the position of the poet laureate is inevitably because it's appointed by government, it's a, you know, the prime Minister is [00:06:00] involved in selecting the poet laureate. It is inevitably going to go to a person who at least conforms to the center or is acceptable to the establishment. And so there is this tension, I think, between the art form itself, which is.

Inherently radical. I think poets have always been radicals, whether it's formally or in terms of their subject matter or both. And yet the nature of the way the position is selected means it inevitably affords greater prominence to the poets who are a little bit more willing to conform to the establishments.

And I think the selection process is absolutely fascinating. It's kind of a, slightly murky world that we don't always know lots about at the time. But there was recently, a whole load of documents that were, I, I guess, declassified after, after decades, in the UK. And a lot of them pertain to all kinds of workings of government between the sixties and the eighties.

But as a lover of poetry, I was particularly interested in the rare occasion that poetry came up in these documents. And the selection of the poet laureate in 1967 came up. And I think this is a really interesting insight because of what it reminds us, which is that these are. Political appointees as much as they are artistic decisions.

You know, it's [00:07:00] not like giving somebody the Nobel Prize or giving somebody the T. S. Eliot Prize, which in theory at least ought to be based on the artistic merit of the work itself. This is not somebody saying, who do we think is the best poet in the UK in any given year? This is somebody saying, which poet is a celebrated poet?

Certainly there is a barrier to entry. You need to have published a decent amount of work to be in the conversation, but also, which poet's voice do we feel is an appropriate reflection of the nation as we perceive it? And I mean, in an already very subjective space that really adds a whole nother element that most poetry awards don't do.

Maiya and I were talking before this episode about whether or not we should view the laureateship as a kind of prize akin to the Nobel or the T. S. Eliot Prize, or whether it's more of a of vocation and undertaKing. And we'll get on perhaps to the. salary of the position a little bit later on, but just to go back to this debate in 1967 about who should be the Laureate robert Graves, the great writer, was mentioned, and Harold Wilson, the Prime Minister, was advised that Graves [00:08:00] might actually be the best poet available, but that his lifestyle was not deemed appropriate. And again, that notion of why that should matter, I mean, it wouldn't matter.

One would hope for an award for someone's poetry, but this is not a poetry prize that simply gives you a medal or an amount of money. This is a vocation, this is a calling, and I think it's really important for listeners to remember that there is a political undercurrent to these appointees and the relationship between the poet laureates, the work they go on to create, and the state that most poets don't have to contend with over the course of their career.

And the ability of certain poets to balance that. The artistic drive that made them great poets to begin with alongside the kind of pressures of writing for the nation. Whatever that means, I think is a really, really curious one. And just so I throw back to you, Maiya you mentioned earlier on about how there are distinct other Laureate traditions.

So the Makar in Scotland, for example, as the role of the kind of Scottish iteration of the laureateship. I'm curious about the cultural world that we live in now, which is so fractured, [00:09:00] so diffused, there are so many kind of subsections of society and poetry occupies a less prominent role in everyday life than it did certainly a hundred years ago or 200 years ago.

Do you think it's possible for any single artist now to claim to be able to represent a nation as kind of diverse and as rich as the United Kingdom? And do you think that played any part in the decision to go from lifetime appointments to 10 year terms? 

Maiya: We're going from big question to big question here. My short answer is no. Do I think that one person over the space of 10 years can represent truly the fabric of the UK? No. I think what the poet Laureate does, however, is provide an indication as to where we are going. I mean. To, to back up my point a little bit here before just saying no outright and not giving any evidence. I mean, let's look at the list of previous poet laureates excluding Carol Ann Duffy, who was the last poet laureate. Every single poet has been male and they have all [00:10:00] also been white. So do I think it's a diverse representation? No. Do I think we're moving in a slightly more progressive direction? Yes. However, of course there are pockets of England, Scotland, Wales, where there is not going to be a connection to what the poet Laureate is writing about. One of the reasons I love Simon Armitage is because he grew up in West Yorkshire where I grew up. I find a familiarity. There's some common nature there, and the things that he writes about and the language he uses and the way his accent sounds is so close to the things that I grew up with.

So that's something for me that is always going to be a reason why I think he's a great poet. Do I think that's applicable to everyone? No. I actually think it's relatively progressive that a Northerner was chosen as the poet laureate rather than, you know, someone who grew up in and around London, kind of as the default. But I do think that there are problems with this selection process. I think it's really fascinating that we have that insight from, you know, 60 years ago because you have this [00:11:00] impression that the selection process isn't as simple as going, okay, who is a great poet? Who do you think is going to write future great poems? I mean, I'm conscious that we've not actually spoken about who Simon Armitage really is, and I will go into this very shortly. But he wrote for 30 years before he was awarded this position, his first collection was published in 1989 and he wasn't

awarded the poet laureateship until 2019. So this is not a case of, Recognizing talent at its peak. This is a case of picKing someone who has a historic body of work that represents something that the selection committee likes. So what that is for Simon Armitage, think is something we can get into. But I am conscious for listeners who don't know who Simon Armitage is, who want to know a little bit more about him.

I'll give you a little bit of background now. So Simon Armitage was born in 1963 in Marsden, which is, in West Yorkshire, which is in the north of England.

He grew up with, you know, a very close family. His father was a probation officer, a [00:12:00] firefighter, an electrician, but he was also a playwright for a local men's troop of actors. art was something that he was familiar with.

So this is a really lovely position to approach poetry from. The first poem that Simon Armitage wrote, he was 10 years old, so we're not looking at someone who discovered this later in life, but I say that he actually didn't study poetry or English literature at university. He studied geography. He did an MA in how TV violence affects young offenders, and he worked as a probation officer.

So a few of the poems that we'll talk about today actually do have a focus on violence. And for anyone who is studying GCSE English literature will know that he has written a poem called Remains, which sits in the anthology. Even to this day, I believe, I mean, I studied it however many years ago now, but there is a focus on more modern violence, I suppose, in that sense. So that absolutely comes from his experience as a probation officer working with young offenders. He is still a professor of poetry at the University of Leeds.

He did a brief [00:13:00] stint from 2015 to 2019 at the University of Oxford. So he's a tenured professor at, you know, these big institutions. and just to list off a few, I mean, he has won heaps and heaps of awards. I mean, the Forward Prize for Poetry, the Eric Gregory Prize, the Keats-Shelley Prize. He was the Millennium Poet in 1999.

He received a CBE for services to poetry in 2010. That's a royally appointed title and of course as he went on to become the poet laureate that was awarded in 2019. So we are looking at a really, really successful career here. And one of the things in my research for this episode, because you know, I grew up reading Simon Armitage, But what I never really considered was who was publishing him. Now, we mentioned at the top of this episode that the poet laureate. It's really a driver for the cultural conversation, but it is also worth noting that poets have to be pushed by publication houses. And the more famous the publication house, the better selling that poet is likely to be. Now Simon Armitage's first collection Zoom was published in 1989 by a [00:14:00] very small press called Bloodaxe Books. Bloodaxe Books are still publishing today. They tend to do a lot of first collections. Pretty much every collection since has been published by Faber. I'm looking at SPAN from 1992 all the way through to 2025. So he was picked up following one collection by one of the biggest publishing houses, and since then has stuck with them. So I guess I've got a question for you, Joe here, which is, what impact do you think that's had on him being selected? And do you think there's an interplay between the publishing house that pushes you as a poet, or do you think there's a separation there?

Joe: Well, I think it's a really, really interesting question. First of all, a a massive kind of personal shout out to Bloodaxe who I think publish some amazing work right to this day, as Maiya mentioned. And ultimately if you want to get to know some of the best poets of tomorrow in the UK and further afield read Bloodaxe today because they'll be being published by Faber and Bloomsbury and the other big publishing houses in the future.

I think. It is something you and I talk about on the podcast. We probably [00:15:00] don't talk about it enough. The relationship between the art that's being put out there and the relatively few number of publishing houses that are willing and able to take a punt on new writers' work. I mean, poetry is not a money-making enterprise, and I'd love to come back to the finances related to the poet laureate with you in a moment.

But somebody like Faber and the status that affords a young poet, I mean, it would've been transformative for Simon Armitage. I mean, the, there's simply the, weight, the ability to get your name and your book in front of as many eyeballs as possible for, uh, a publishing house like Faber compared to other smaller ones is it's incomparable and there is a degree of kind of.

Randomness about who gets pushed and who doesn't. I'm not suggesting for a moment that someone actually doesn't deserve it. He's a phenomenal poet, but he's not the only phenomenal person. There's lots of phenomenal poets that will never get a publication with Faber. So there is a degree of fortune. historically there has been obviously a degree of elitism that has prevented, you know, writers from outside of a certain clique, from getting those bigger contracts, those bigger [00:16:00] deals, the ability to work full time, as a writer.

I mean, you mentioned that Simon Armitage was a probation officer. I mean, he was still a probation officer for several years after his first collection was published. As a reminder, people don't get into writing poetry to transform their lives financially, or if they do, they're probably in the wrong profession.

So I think that it's, again, it's that kind of underworld of the publishing world when it comes to poetry that we probably don't appreciate enough, even you and I who are poetry lovers, but certainly many of our listeners probably won't heard of Bloodaxe Books, although I hope sincerely they go and check them out now 'cause uh, they are a brilliant publishing house, publishing brilliant work.

But on this subject of money, Maiya, I’d just like to come back to this because I think it is really, really important, especially when we're talking about an award. This is an award, but it's also a job. You are given a job for 10 years now, one would imagine and one would hope that like any job people are remunerated for that position.

And I think it's really, really important for listeners to understand that what these poets are taKing on yes, is greater prominence, which will help their book sales, immensely. but the actual salary of the [00:17:00] role is relatively low, and we're talking about less than 6,000 pounds a year. Now, Maiya mentioned that if this was all the poet was doing that year, then that would be far below minimum wage.

there is of course another interesting tidbit, which is that, as I mentioned earlier on, poets were originally paid in wine or in sherry. this was then discontinued for many years. But friends of the podcast, Ted Hughes, when he became poet laureate in the eighties, requested that he, revive this tradition.

And every poet laureate since has been given 720 bottles of Sherry, to go alongside their 6,000 pound award. So, there's a kind of very archaic, slightly jovial throwback, with the wine and the sherry, but the actual financial award is, like I said, 6,000 pounds a year.

It's relatively low. I mean, the T. S. Eliot Prize, which is one of the most celebrated poetry prizes, is 25,000 pounds to the winner. And that's just, here's your 25,000 pounds. Your book sales are going to increase. 'cause you can put TS Elliot winner on the copy and you know, there you go. There's no obligation to then continue to produce work for the next 10 years.

The Nobel Prize is, I think it's nearly a million euros. The Nobel Prize is awarded. So [00:18:00] despite the poet laureate to the UK being one of the world's most prestigious and celebrated poetry positions financially, it's very, very lowly rewarded initially. obviously I've already mentioned there are benefits to the sales of the collections that those poets already have.

Now, Maiya, I'm making A habit of throwing you difficult questions in this episode, but let's continue. What do you think is the significance of the relationship between the prestige of the role and the relatively humble salary that comes with it?

Maiya: Well Joe, it's a really fair point. It's a very, very slight amount of money in comparison to some of the larger prizes. And I think the language of prize when we talk about the poet laureate is what confuses it here because I wouldn't consider this a prize. I think you're right. I would consider this to be a vocation, to be an honor. And I think what the 5,000, 6,000 pound and I think the, the sacks of Sherry, it really adds to this sense of it being a historic position. And I like the idea that instead of this being something that you should aspire [00:19:00] to, benefit you financially, it's something you should aspire to because of the honor it grants you as a poet. so that's really my first thought when it comes to the, financial aspect of this. But I think you have to relate it to the real time experience of these poet laureates. Now, when I was doing my research for this episode, I really dived into what Simon Armitage's life looked like, and I was shocked by how much work he's done on camera. Now, in 2007, he produced a translation of a middle English piece of work called Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, and this really kind of propelled him into the TV world.

So he was on screen talking about Arthurian translations, he was talking about history, and he had this huge cultural presence outside of the fact that he was just a poet. So part of me has started to think, following all my research because, you know, he was doing this stuff when I was a child. so I wasn't aware of it at the time, but. I think outside of being poet laureate, he built a cultural reputation that meant that he was more easily [00:20:00] selectable instead of just being someone who publishes books and is never seen. He had a really strong presence on the media, and obviously we live in a media literate age.

You know, people who are seen on tv, on social media are going to be successful. I mean, I was telling Joe before this episode, there's a remix of a spoken word piece that I really, really love, and it's Simon Armitage doing a spoken word piece with Future Utopia and DJ Seinfeld. And it's his voice layered over these like amazing kind of syns and this music. But again, this is something that's available on Spotify, on balance, you have this idea that, you know, on the one hand you have a poet laureate who is holding this historic position, has to comment on big cultural moments. But on the other hand, they are someone who is also deeply ingrained in the culture. They have been chosen because they were already there and one of the things that Joe and I were talking about actually before this podcast as well, was the fact that Simon Armitage is doing this library tour. I mean, Joe, do you wanna tell us a little bit about [00:21:00] what this signifies whilst he's in this position?

Joe: Yeah, I think I'd love to talk about the library Tour and I think it's one of the most interesting things he's, doing as poet laureate among many others. But I just wanna touch on that topic of tv. 'cause I think it was just making me think about the topic we were covering earlier on with regard to the selection of these people and how these poets tends to the center.

What I mean, I think by that, and I think your TV point is a really good one, is there has to be some kind of connection between the country that we have been and the country that we are and want to be going forward. And I think. Armitage clearly has a great interest for history for the past, and, and the laureateship itself is very interested in the past, not only because we have an unbroken chain of poets going all the way back to the 17th century, but also the word laureate itself to derives from ancient Rome.

The idea that poets will be awarded with a Laurel wreath to kind of show, that they were the foremost poets of their age. And another fascinating thing there, you can't obviously pay your rental for groceries with Laurel wreaths. And again, there is that sense that this is an award that is honorary [00:22:00] rather than financially transformative.

But I think Armitage is simultaneous interest in Britain's past. I mean, the translation of, and his other kind of history programs that he's been involved in. But his interest in modern mediums, I think connects the past and the present in a way that the poet Laureate kind of has to be able to do because when you take on the role, you're also taKing on.

Everything, the role has been up to that stage, the history, the prestige of the laureateship. But you have to talk to people where they are. And you know, Simon Armitage has, a very, very successful career in tv. He had a poetry podcast as well. And we're not really prone to, you know, shouting at other poetry podcasts on Beyond the Verse.

But I think for Simon Armitage, we can make an exception. He had a wonderful, uh, podcast series. The poet Laureate goes to his shed, which was a really, really brilliant listen for anyone out there. Once he finished all the episodes of Beyond the Verse, I'm sure he can go and check that one out.

And so I think that is really interesting about him. He's able to kind of connect with people where they are in a modern, very diverse media landscape, and yet also retain a connection [00:23:00] to not only his foreign poet laureates, but also the kind of distant British literary past. And I think that makes him such a suitable candidate and one of the reasons I think he's been doing an excellent job as poet laureate. Now you mentioned the libraries. One of the things I'm really interested in, again, maybe it's that sense of connecting the past and the present is Simon Armitage. Every year he's been poet laureate, is going on a nationwide library tour, doing readings, doing events and different libraries.

He's trying to work through kind of as much as the United Kingdom as he can his 10 year term, of which he's seven years in. And obviously for international listeners who might not be aware, Britain has a very proud history of these public libraries, these great centers of learning, these places where people can access books, but also educational resources, help with work.

Oftentimes, librarians in the UK who are very, very underappreciated, kind of fulfill, the role of social workers. There's lots of information about different. local schemes that are going on. I mean, they're, they're fabulous places and they have been very, very underfunded and under kind of celebrated in the last, what, 20, 30 years.

when I lived in Brixton, Brixton Library was this unbelievable hub, not [00:24:00] only, for the things you'd expect access to books. I mean, I borrowed dozens and dozens of books in the library. But I was always struck by the way in which libraries become shared cultural spaces, places where kids, adults, retirees, people who are looking for work, people who are looking to pass the time. Students, all of these people kind of coalesce in these public spaces.

And I love the fact that Simon Armitage is trying to really shine a light on these places, the role they play in society. they need to be protected. They need to be, uh, better funded. I think that's not too controversial thing to say, the poet laureate has that ability, the prestige of the role still means that they can't dedicate their time and attention to everything.

I mean, that's that problem of representation I mentioned earlier on. It is implausible that any writer can represent everything and can, you know, champion every cause. But when they do dedicate their attention to a specific area, a specific cause, they can make a big difference. And Simon Armitage is doing a brilliant job of trying to move the conversation back to these libraries, these centers, where society merges, interacts and intersects [00:25:00] with itself.

I think it's something that should be applauded and, I'm a massive, massive fan of his library tour, and I hope, to get to one of the events that he's doing before his term as poet Laureate finishes in 2029. But Maiya, we've talked a lot about Armitage's career.

We've talked a lot about what the laureateship represents. Let's get into the poems themselves. So where would you like to kick us off and would you like to start with a poem before he was Laureate or a poem after he achieved the laureateship?

Maiya: The poem I'd like to start with is actually the titular poem from his 1989 collection. Zoom. Now Zoom is a fascinating poem, and I think part of the reason I really like this poem is that you can really see how Armitage's geographical study plays into this, particularly urban landscapes.

But this poem is actually about the expansion of the universe. So it's this really broad topic that's boiled down into something that feels very accessible, very urban. And I'll read a few lines from the poem because unfortunately I can't read the whole thing. And I think listeners will hear accessible this poem is and [00:26:00] Armitage's style. So the opening of the poem goes as follows. It begins as a house, an end terrace in this case, but it will not stop there. Soon. It is an avenue which Camba arrogantly passed. The Mechanics Institute turns left at the main road without even looking. And quickly, it is a town with all four major clearing banks. Now? There's something that I find really satisfying about this poem, and I think where that comes from for me is the open sense of world building that we have here. You start at a very specific point.

You start in an end terrace. Now, for anyone who's ever lived in the UK, visited the UK, they will know that Victorian terrorist houses are quite literally everywhere. I mean, you have this idea of. What a British city, British town looks like. And I don't doubt for a second that most people will go to these long terrorist rows.

So immediately you have a sense of place. This is very firmly rooted in . [00:27:00] Britain , but more specifically, he mentions the Mechanics Institute. Now this is a building that is in Manchester. So again, we're adding to this sense of place, and this is directional. He is telling you exactly where this poem starts from. It starts at an end terrace, it walks down an avenue towards the Mechanics Institute turns left at the main road. So this is a, a poem that maps out its journey very literally, but also speaks to so much more because this, again, without the Mechanics Institute could be. Any street in the UK. It could be any location, it could be any familiar place to someone who has grown up here, who has lived here, who has visited here. And I find that that familiarity, that sense of specificity really lends itself to the tone that we have that carries on through this poem. Now the specificity that we have at the opening of this poem is very quickly tossed aside. As we move into the second stanza, it becomes about the universe. It becomes this huge hulKing thing of a poem where you have [00:28:00] this real focus on how large the world is. So that contrast between this really. Close opening moment as set against how wide the world is, how kind people are. And then at the end of the poem, we return to that moment where you're checking out your shopping at a store. So we have this sense of flex and when we have this focus on the urban as set against the great expanse of the world, the flexibility of that world, the boundaries of that world become a little bit permeable. So for me, as, as a poet as well, it's a really delicious idea that he's managing so skillfully to not cross boundaries, but push them slightly. And I think this is a theme that carries on through a lot of armitage's work and. I am conscious that, you know, I've, I've spoken about a general idea of this poem.

I think Zoom is one of those that you could focus on just one thing in this poem, and you could write a thousand word essay. But really this poem uses the local to [00:29:00] explore the expansive. And I think that's a very, very tough thing to do as a poet because we often talk about how you either need to be incredibly specific or you need to be more vague in order to make something palatable or accessible. And the way that Armitage is able to handle the local as set against the expansive is really, really clever. I mean, Joe, I'd love to know how you feel about this poem and, you know, the, the exploration of that kind of wider world. What is the purpose of using the local.

Joe: Well, it's a great question. I absolutely love this poem Again, , For listeners who missed it, this is taken from the debut collection from Bloodaxe Books, and I, suggest you go and seek out a copy of this whole collection 'cause it's a wonderful, wonderful collection. And this the title poem for me. There is something so satisfying you.

use the word delicious and I, second that about the way in which space is expanded only to be contracted in this poem. And I love it because on the one hand we have a relatively simple, juxtaposition between the kind of innocent, very, [00:30:00] very mundane expansion of the life. In that first answer, it almost reflects the life of a child growing up.

Your home is the kind of limits of your universe. You don't tend to go out without your parents at a very young age. And gradually kind of your universe expands as you grow older. The end of the street, gradually further and further into town. And the way in which the poem presents the world almost as though you're on a treadmill and the world is being generated before your eyes and it didn't exist before you set foot in it.

I just, I love that way It's described and initially it seems like a simple contrast between the limits of. The town, the innocent space of the speaker and the vastness of the universe. The thing I love about it though is as you mentioned, we come back to the mundane. We return to the ordinary.

And again, if we're looking at this poem as simultaneously something urban and ordinary, and on the other hand something cosmic, if we think about the expansion of the universe, that is a one way thing. Everything is expanding outwards at a million miles an hour. The thing I love about this poem is it reminds us that human experience isn't like that.

Yes, our lives [00:31:00] expand, but they also then return. There is a kind of, to use another cosmic term, there is a kind of gravitational pull that draws us back to our earliest experiences, our home, our childhood streets, the shops that we remember as children and. I think that's the way in which this poem has a kind of soul.

It's not simply an endless expansion, like the universe kind of going outwards from a singular shared point at the beginning. Armitage is reminding us that that shared point isn't only our beginning, it's also the place we return to in our moments of doubt, our moments of affection. And of course, we end in a way that the universe doesn't end.

And unlike the universe, which only expands, we also kind of, as we grow older, our lives shrink again, and they return to the kind of smaller limits that we remember as children. And there's something about the way in which the poem deals with space, the finite nature of the human experience of space versus the infinite of the universe itself.

I just think it's an absolute masterpiece of a poem.

Maiya: Jumping off the back of that, one of the words I'd really like to focus on [00:32:00] is mercifully, this poem uses that term to of save the speaker, save the individual who is experiencing this rapid expansion of their personal universe to bring them back to their singular moment, to bring them back to themself. And the line that really kind of drives this point home is before we know it, it is out of our hands, city, nation, hemisphere, universe, hammering out in all directions until suddenly mercifully it is drawn aside. So again, you have this sense of speed in the actual language of the poem as well. In this line. We have city and nation as standalone within their own line, and then hemisphere, universe hammering out in all directions as a secondary line to that. So again, there is this sense of flexibility here where we have a very short line, quickly followed by a rapid succession of much longer words that physically expand into the space. And the language also says that and reflects that as well. I think Mercy is a really [00:33:00] wonderful contrast to that because, you know, as I was speaking, I was forming a new thought here, but maybe that's another thing that we could pull outta why he was chosen to be poet laureate.

Because of course, if you're a poet laureate of the UK, you have to love where you live. You have to love the UK. And this poem, I think, is a bit of a love letter to place and to time because instead of drawing this focus out from the place that we're in, instead of drawing the focus away from the individual, the external world isn't shown as sinister.

I think that's the wrong way to look at this poem. if there is a wrong way to look at this poem, but it's definitely seen as something unfamiliar and familiarity is something that is very clearly appreciated in this poem. So that return to self, that focus on where we are, I think maybe adds to this idea that, you know, Armitage is a poet that so successful in writing time and place and very evidently loving that time and place as well.

So I guess it's, [00:34:00] a question to listeners. I mean, there's so many ways you can take this poem, but I'd love to know from them if you think that this is maybe the start of Armitage's success, really. I mean, we're talking, this is his first collection as well. So it's interesting to look back and see this poem as set against some of his later poems and the reasons why he was chosen.

I mean, I'd love to see the breakdown of why he was chosen to be poet laureate and who was up against him. ' Because it must be such a tough decision. I think we have more and more incredibly successful poets now in the modern age than we ever did previously because of how the arts are funded and because of how many people have accessibility. So it'll be interesting to know.

Joe: 100%. And just as you were talKing there, I mean, so many thoughts popped into my head. Place I think is really, really important as you mentioned, and there does have to be kind of an affection for Britain and what Britain and the UK represents. And ultimately this is something that stood in the way of W. H. Auden.

One of the poets I mentioned who was considered in 1967, he was British born American poet. and ultimately he was deemed inappropriate because he had [00:35:00] American citizenship. He had gone across the pond as it were. And again, that sense that it's not enough to simply be from Britain and be a great poet.

You have to have some kind of affection for Britain, both in your work and in your personal life. And it got me thinking about something else. Maiya, and again, I promise this will be the last very complicated question I throw you in this episode, but I'm into Yorkshire, as I mentioned. Simon Armitage is born in Yorkshire. This poem we talked about is set in Manchester, but lots of his work is very much drawing on his experience of growing up in Yorkshire.

Ted Hughes, who was only three poet laureates ago, was also a kind of an iconic poet from Yorkshire. W. H. Auden was born in Yorkshire. We're recording this in March. And one of the biggest films of the past month, albeit I have my own criticisms of it, was Wuthering Heights. And again, the Bronte Sisters are these enormously prominent literary figures from Yorkshire. It punches above its weight in the kind of literary landscape of the UK and has done for a very long time.

my co-host Maiya herself, is a wonderful Yorkshire poet that continues that fine tradition. But what is it about this place you think that generates such incredible literary [00:36:00] output?

Maiya: bizarrely I've spent quite a lot of time thinking about this, coming from that place myself. But I think Yorkshire has a, a really unique reputation not just the poetic canon, but, culture and art as a, general outlook.

I think one of the things that struck me, I was actually reading an interview, with Simon Armitage where he spoke about the fact that he grew up on indie music. Right. And I think Yorkshire has always been really relevant to indie subculture. And I think part of Simon Armitage's success has to be tied to the fact that he is from Yorkshire.

And I think Yorkshire has had a real position in culture, in poetry as affecting a sort of subculture, I want to say. You know, think about the amount of famous indie bands that come from in and around Yorkshire. Think about the amount of, as you say, writers, poets that come from Yorkshire that represent something different to what the norm was.

And when I say the norm, I mean London based poets [00:37:00] who wrote about specifically urban landscapes and would escape to the country and write a very different view of what the countryside represented. We've talked in many of our previous episodes about the romantic poets and how the Lake District was a sort of retreat for them. But the countryside in Yorkshire, as you'll know read Wuthering Heights, is more bleak. It's not necessarily presented as a retreat always. It's something that has a little bit of roughness to its edges, and I like the idea that Yorkshire represents something apart from London. There is a real difference between, I think the way London is presented in art and poetry and and literature. As a technologically advanced city now, one that was at the core of industrialization back in the day. But Yorkshire has always stood apart as something that has a rural tinge, but still has that sense of community and togetherness, I personally believe, undoubtedly that it's influenced Armitage's work because if [00:38:00] you look at the way that he grew up with his father writing for an all male troop of actors. If you look at the sense of kind of generational togetherness, the fact that his father was a probation officer, he became a probation officer. The unity that there is across Yorkshire, and I personally find that, you know, I I mentioned it at the top of this episode. Part of the reason I love Simon Armitage is because he represents something that is so familiar to me. There's a different thread or a different type of writing that comes out of the Yorkshire landscape. I think the Yorkshire landscape is inherently a driver for something that feels. Alternative. And I think alternative is the key word here, because we have looked at so many poets across our, Four Seasons now who write from London or from capital cities. Yorkshire has always in literature, I find, and, and to me personally as well, you know, represented the alternative because even though Yorkshire isn't a city, Yorkshire is a historic county. It is the largest historic county. So there is a rivalry between [00:39:00] this geographically large space as a competitor to London, but it's not a competitor in terms of innovation. So I find that the only thing that you can then draw from that is the, obviously the physical space, but the culture. So anyone who has grown up in the UK will know about the North South divide. The fact that there is a rivalry between whether you grew up in the north of the UK or if you grew up in the south of the UK. And it's an ongoing conversation. It's one I had so many times at uni, whether that's about accent or where you came from or where that dividing line is. Because if you grew up in the Midlands, you are gonna very much contest where that line is.

so There is in social conversation an idea of competition. So I really find that this comparison between a. You know, the urban and the rural London and the north of England, you have this real separation in between what is considered mainstream and what is considered alternative.

So, as a very long-winded way to [00:40:00] answer your question, I think part of the reason Yorkshire occupies this huge space in the poetic conversation is because of its ongoing relationship to being alternative, to being considered, you know, the indie little sister of London and to me that feels special, whether it's for me as a poet or for any kind of other Yorkshire poets. You know, growing up in Yorkshire, there are specific poetry festivals for Yorkshire poets. There are northern poet groups. So there is this real community, and I think that community is only fostered by that history. And the more we foster the history, the wider that community becomes. So I think that's part of why it has this kind of cultural inheritance as a place of difference.

And I wonder how much Armitage draws from that, given that in my head, the poet laureate is a seat that. Typically, I would assume sits in the south. But of course, he's a northern voice. He's a northern poet, he's a northern writer, and his accent is something [00:41:00] that you can't avoid. So it's very evident when you listen to him talk or when you listen to him read that that's a part of his identity that you can't take away. So I find that really interesting. I would love to talk to him about how his identity plays into that role.

Joe: Well. That was fascinating. Maiya and Simon, if you're listening, we'd love to talk to you. You welcome on the podcast. Anytime. I think for international listeners, I would just really stress this geography point because again, for listeners who aren't familiar with the geography of the UK, they might look at the UK as being a relatively small place in the grand scheme of things, and how much difference can there really be?

But, you know, ask anybody from the UK, as I mentioned, there are huge, you know, intercity rivalries, inter regional rivalries, a lot of them driven by sport, but a lot of 'em, of course, driven by politics, driven by historical funding, you know, which cities, generate economic growth and which cities were underfunded by certain governments.

And I mean, the history runs very, very deep as it does all over the world. Of course, I'm not trying to say the UK is unique in this respect. What I'm trying to focus in on is. How difficult the job of being a national poet must be, therefore, because as we mentioned, Simon Armitage is drawing on a tradition [00:42:00] that is hyperlocal.

He's writing what he knows and what he knows is Yorkshire in the north of England, where he grows up and where he spends most of his life. The idea that person can then step into the shoes of someone who is meant to represent the voice of an entire nation, and of course, United Kingdom is multiple nations, is really, really interesting and, and really, really challenging.

And I think it's testament to him that he's been able to do it so well. I think one thing is really, really encouraging over recent years and recent decades is how the notion of what makes someone appropriate to be a national voice when it comes to poetry is changing. I mean, of course, as we mentioned, Armitage is born in Yorkshire.

Ted Hughes, who was the poet laureate for life, who died in 1998, was from Yorkshire. Carol Ann Duffy was not only the first woman to hold the position, she was also the first Scottish poet laureate. So there is a sense to which the voice of the nation no longer feels as though it must be somebody from the south, somebody who perhaps came through the great traditional institutions of, you know, British university systems or [00:43:00] certain publishing houses, that it can be more fringe voices, even though, as I mentioned earlier on, there is a need for that voice to not be too counter, to what the establishment represents.

And maybe this brings us on to, you know, one of the most iconic symbols of the British state, which is of course, the British royal family. So I can now jump forwards, uh, a long way into someone’s career. He's now the poet laureate in 2022. He's been the poet laureate for three years. When one of the defining constitutional moments of this century so far from a British point of view happens, with the death of Queen Elizabeth II and as poet laureate. you know, he must have known when he took the role, given the Queen's age, that this was a poem he might go on to have to write one day.

But he published the poem, floral Tribute. Again, I can't read the whole thing, but I'll read the first few lines of the poem. So this is Simon Armitage’s ‘Floral Tribute’ published in 2022. Evening will come however determines the late afternoon limes and oaks in their last green [00:44:00] flush, pearled in September.

Mist. I have conjured a lily to light these hours. A token of thanks, zones and auras of soft glare, framing the brilliant globes. A promise made and kept for life. That was your gift because of which here is a gift in return glovewort to sum each shining bonnet guarded by stern lace like leaves. So Maiya, the thing that always strikes me about this poet, which of course is one of the most read poems, kind of the day of publication in recent history.

I mean, it's right up there with probably something like Amanda Gorman's poem that she read at Biden's inauguration that was being published in, you know, mainstream newspapers. People who don't care about poetry read this poem because the Death of the Queen was so kind of all consuming in, in our media.

my question's kind of a two-parter. As a reader and lover of poetry, what strikes you about

the tone of this piece, given the elevated nature of the subject [00:45:00] matter? I'm kind of got some thoughts on that, but I'd love to hear yours. And secondly, as a writer. Try to give us some insight into what Armitage is doing, knowing that this is likely to be the most read poem he ever writes, simply because of the subject matter it concerns.

Maiya: Well, it's definitely right to address this as a two-parter. Joe. I think to focus in on the first part of your question, we really have to look to the history of mourning poems? . . Primarily, I would focus on Ode specifically to the royal family because. If you go back through, hundreds of years of poetry, and specifically for previous poet laureates, you can see named odes. Ode to the King, and often they would be name dropped in the title. So of course, what's really interesting with this poem is that we don't have a name. I think this has a dual function. I think one, it speaks to Armitage's ability to know that his poetry is going to transcend that specific moment. He's making this poem so it's not just about the Queen, but it can be read, you know, at other people's funerals as well, because it's such a beautiful mediation on life and [00:46:00] death. But I think it also speaks to the popularity of the Queen. You know, the Queen was a beloved figure in the UK. She reigned for 70 years. That spans more than three poet laureates, four poet laureates, I believe. So when you are talking about someone who was such a cultural icon, such a figurehead of what the British monarchy represents, the generalization of this poem. I think captured the mood of a nation. I mean, I can't express to people who weren't in the UK at the time, but when the Queen passed away, the mourning in the streets was palpable. You could feel this air of heaviness because she was so widely loved. And it's fascinating to me that despite that he still chooses to not name her.

I think it absolutely represents the fact that we know who this is about. She was such a huge figure that you don't have to second guess it. You don't need to know who this poem is about because it is so evident. It is part of a cultural history. And I [00:47:00] actually really love the floral symbolism in this because of course everyone knows I love a title. Floral tribute suggests that you should focus on the florals in this poem, and the first flower that I would really like to pick up on is lily of the valley, or lilies as a whole. Lilies represent historically in literature, grace, femininity, but also death and rebirth. So the symbolism of the lily is so incredibly rich here. And of course, the Queen was revered for her grace, for her dignity. So the lily is a perfect choice to represent what the Queen was so well known for. So the lily and the Queen become synonymous with each other here, even though Lily in its own right they become synonymous with each other here. So I find that this suggestion of Lily, and later in the poem, it's referred to as glovewort because was used historically as a, salve for your hands.

It was, a medicinal item. [00:48:00] The suggestion that the Queen's reign was balm to chaos and suffering is such a gentle suggestion. I think Armitage has absolutely pulled from his knowledge of landscapes and nature to really pinpoint supportive symbolism in this poem.

It's a really fascinating one because as we mentioned with the former poem, we were discussing Zoom, urban landscapes really take a center stage in that poem because with Zoom, the poem we were mentioning earlier. Urban landscapes really take a center stage.

So to flip forward, years later to this poem explore the development of Armitage's work, I find this poem doesn't lose the authenticity of his voice and doesn't lose the authenticity of his, tone and the way that he writes. But there is an elevation to it because of the way that he pinpoints these really beautiful singular items, these motifs that represent something so much greater. And it's very clever because of the grace that I think it affords the subject of the poem. But [00:49:00] I'd love to know your thoughts on this, Joe. I mean, there's so much floral symbolism the way that it talks about power is also very interesting. But where would you like to jump into this poem?

Joe: I think I'd like to start with the flowers as, you did. '. 'Cause like you, I share an interest in titles and. For me, this poem captures the essence of how the role of poet laureate has changed. And you mentioned previous poet laureates and the way that they would've dealt with occasions like this.

And really, I mentioned earlier in the episode the archetypal poet laureate remains Alfred Lord Tennyson, now there wasn't no monarch who passed away during Tennyson's time as poet laureate. 'Cause Queen Victoria reigned for a very, very long time. But there was a major figure. I mentioned this poem earlier on. The Duke of Wellington obviously revered historical figure in British history, and he passed away. And Alfred l Tennyson wrote Ode on the Death of the Duke of Wellington. And I think as Maiya mentioned, that sense of putting the name and the title front and center really contrasts with, what Armitage is doing in this poem.

I'm just gonna read the first stanza of Ode and the Death of the Duke of Wellington. To give listeners [00:50:00] a sense of how. A very similar occasion in theory, the death of a great historical figure is dealt with differently despite the fact that Tennyson and Armitage are writing from the same vantage point, the same role they occupied at this moment.

So the first stanza of ‘Ode on the death of Duke Wellington goes as follows, Bury the Great Duke with an empire's lamentation let us bury the great Duke to the noise of the mourning of a mighty nation mourning when their leaders fall. Warriors carry the Warriors, Paul and Sorrow, darkens, Hamlet and Hall.

Now there’s beauty to that poem in its own right, but the tone could not be more different. The sense of elevation, the sense of, calling upon mighty nations, empires, Lamentations, hamlets, and Halls warriors.

There was a sense to which what Tennyson is doing is depersonalizing the loss. It's not someone that you know, it's not someone that you can picture because how could you picture knowing such a man? Whereas [00:51:00] what Armitage is doing, it's almost the exact opposite. he appreciates the status of the Queen, but he decides to humanize her, to make her like someone you could mourn personally.

And that's why I think the flowers are so crucial. if Somebody, you know, passes away, you're probably gonna send flowers to the family. Flowers obviously are things that we pick out for the funerals of, people that we know and love. There is a sense to which Armitage is imploring the nation to think of the Queen, the way they would think of anyone else who passed away, somebody they know personally.

And I think that that shift from. Emphasizing what makes these great figures different from us in the case of Tennyson, to what makes them similar to us. In the case of Armitage represents a, a massive change in society in the way that we perceive the royals and celebrities and, and and political figures, but also the way in which the Poet laureate has to reflect that change.

It is not sufficient for the poet laureate to write a poem like Tennyson would've done. Doesn't mean that Tennyson was wrong to write it in his era. It's a reminder of the way in which the poet laureate represents [00:52:00] simultaneously tradition and the unbroken chain of that tradition. But on the other hand, evolution and the way in which society has changed and any great laureate must be a mirror to the society in which they are living and writing.

And I think this poem does that so, so beautifully.

Maiya: I mean, what a powerful line to capture. The essence, the feeling of the UK at the moment, the Queen passed away to say, a blurred new day breaks un crowned on remote peaks and public parks. There is this sense of scale and impact, but handled so deftly, so softly that that familiarity, again, it's a word I'm gonna return to again and again in this episode, is just so strong and powerful.

Familiarity is something that we as readers, we as listeners are able to latch onto. And Armitage is so successful at handling these huge topics with grace, with that moment, with that recognition that. Not only is this loss, one for the [00:53:00] country, one for the state, one for the Empire, as we would've seen in previous decade, as we would've seen in previous centuries, but it's a loss for the individual as well. And I, love Armitage's sense of individualism as it carries through his poems. And you know, I'm conscious stand, there's a million more poems we could talk about, but do I want to end this episode by really drilling down into the poet Laureate role? Because we've talked throughout this episode on some of his poems, some of the ways in which the poet laureate represents the nation historically.

But where do you see the poet laureate role going moving forward? Do you have hopes for how the poet Laureate position can continue to develop?

Joe: It's such a complicated question, and of course, it's a question that people in government will be having to consider over the next few years. Um, as we mentioned already, Simon Armitage's term as poet laureate is up in 2029 and there will have to be, a replacement.

I would like that replacement to, it's very difficult because, you know, I don't want to be too prescriptive and start talking about names of poets I admire, because I think your question is about something [00:54:00] bigger than that. I think your question is about the nature of the role itself, not just which individuals do we think would do a good job.

I think the direction of travel that the laureateship has been on is the right one. I think I'm heartened to see that there have been, poets from Scotland in the case of Caroline Duffy more poets from Yorkshire and out of the south in the case of Ted Hughes and Simon Armitage. Caroline Duffy was the first female poet laureate, and we talked actually, I think in an episode a long time ago about how Elizabeth Barrett Browning almost became the first female poet laureate in 1850.

And actually it was then not until 2009 that we finally got a woman in that role. So, you know, I would like to see more female poets occupy that position. But I would like the role to continue to evolve. I would like the role to continue to encourage poets to speak to people where they are, whether that's in different mediums like podcasts, different kinds of poetry like Instagram poetry or poetry that appeals more to, uh, younger people because I think the poet laureate.

Has no influence unless they can speak to people where they are. It's no use only [00:55:00] talking to people who already follow and enjoy poetry. And I would like to see the poet laureateship continue its evolution in the sense that poets from different parts of the UK have a voice that makes up the fabric of the UK.

Whether that's geographically, whether that's in terms of the social class to which they belong, their ethnicity, their gender, their religion. The UK is a broad mass of people and it's changing all the time. And I think so much of our current discourse politically in the UK and socially is about what makes us different.

And often that's weaponized against certain groups. I would like to see the laureateship play the role of celebrating those differences. But reminding us that those differences don't define us, and actually there is something larger to which we belong. I'm a believer in society. I believe that we live in society, and I would like to see the laureateship reflect the fact that society is made up of people who are different from one another, but nevertheless contribute to a wider whole. All

Maiya: I couldn't agree more. I think seeing the poet Laureate more and more [00:56:00] in media is such an exciting development. I think the next person that is chosen 2029 will be a revelation, and I've got my fingers crossed for some people.

I won't name names, but I think we are at the cusp of some really exciting developments in this role, and I do hope that the next poet Laureate and Simon Armitage himself continues this really positive approach to making poetry more accessible, making poetry, the core of. The cultural conversation. I would love to see a recognition for all of the great works and all of the great poets that we have in this day and age. I mean, it would be an interesting conversation, perhaps for another episode as to whether we need city poet laureates, because of course there's specificity with, you know, it's gonna be very different when you approach a poet from Liverpool and a poet from London, a poet from Cornwall, and a poet from Leeds. It's a really diverse and exceptionally talented pool of poets that we can choose from. 

Joe: I'm gonna have to interrupt you. It would've been remiss of me to say, uh, maybe 2029 [00:57:00] is too soon for you. But do you have plans in 2039? 

Maiya: We shall have to see. Keep your eyes peeled everyone. Um, do you know what? I think it'll be too much pressure. Too much pressure to write the weight of a nation. 

Joe: I'll get right. I'll, I'll convince you. I'm sure.

Maiya: . But who knows? Maybe you guys would know me before I got famous. Um, but yes, thank you for the compliment. Regardless, I have had a really lovely time on this episode.

I think it's been such a rich discussion. And again, if you're listening to our episode today, if you've listened to our episodes in the past and you have thoughts , please do feedback to us. We love, love, love to hear from you. It's so exciting for us to engage with your thoughts and your opinions for the next few episodes that we have coming up.

So any recommendations for the next poet laureate, send them my way. If we've got any sway, we'll get it forward. But it's been great chatting to you today. Joe. Thank you so much for all your input as always. But it's been a really wonderful conversation today.

Joe, do you want to tell us a little bit about what we're doing on our next episode

Joe: I'd love to. And I second that thought. It's been a really, really [00:58:00] interesting conversation. And like you said, can't wait to hear any listener feedback that they might have. Next week, we are going to be returning to one of the great poetic voices we're gonna be discussing. Emily Dickinson's life and career.

We've done an episode in the past on one of Emily Dickinson's poems. If anyone can't wait for next week, they can go back and listen to that. But we're gonna be covering a much greater range of her work next week. And I, for one, can’t wait. But for now, it's goodbye from me.

Maiya: and goodbye from me and the team@poemanalysis.com and Poetry+? Until next time.