The Ode Form: Keats, Neruda, Brontë & Boland

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Maiya: Hello and welcome to Beyond the Verse, a poetry podcast brought you by PoemAnalysis.com and Poetry+. I'm Maiya, I'm here with my co-host, Joe, and we have a wonderful episode in store for you today. All about the ode. Form. Now. Today we're going to be talking about the evolution of the form, the subject matter, and kind of key figures throughout the history of form, including Keats, Neruda, Emily Bronte, and I.

One cannot wait to have these discussions with you, Joe. But before we get into the body of the work, Joe, can you tell us a little bit about the history of the ode form and kind of where it comes from?, 

Joe: Yeah, 

I'd love to. So first of all, , When we're talking about, the ode for Poetry, what we're talking about really is a loose affiliation of different influences. So primarily we're going back to the ancient world, to two poets in particular. We're looking at Pindar, who's an ancient Greek poet, writing in the fifth century, BCE.

And we're looking at Horace, this [00:01:00] iconic Roman poet writing just before the birth of Christ, the first century, BCE. And we've also got the presence of the ancient Greek poet Sappho that Maiya and I did an episode on in season one. She was also writing poems that now are kind of regarded asode. And effectively you have these interlocking, different traditions, different influences. that form what we now know as the ode in the English language, obviously that Maiya and I are speaking, a couple of key differences between these different forms. So Pindar, the ancient Greek poet I mentioned writing in the fifth century, BCE. His poetry was very much about public praise, public praise of civic figures, of athletic achievements. It was often set to music, sometimes with accompaniment and chorus. And it's a pretty straightforward poem of celebration. It elevates a particular subject and showers them, with ceremonious praise. Horace’s poems are a little bit different. They tend to be written in quatrains. They're a little bit more private.

they weren't as related to public performance as Pindars and they were a little bit more contemplative about their subject. They were perhaps a little bit more nuanced than [00:02:00] Pindar's odes. And the Sapphic tradition, as I mentioned, it, is different in it itself. it was much more, related again to public performance, to musicality, but also, towards specific figures. Maiya and I talked about, the ode to. Anactoria in a previous episode, she also wrote an ode to Aphrodite, the Greek goddess. So that tradition, again, is doing something slightly different. So when we then jump forward to the, I guess, the great writer of odes in English, John Keats, and again, Maiya and I have already done an episode on Keats’s ‘Ode to a Nightingale, which I'm sure we'll mention later on, but we're gonna look at a few of the different odes today. Keats is of course one of the romantic poets writing, in the English language. And like many, many of his contemporaries, he's very interested in that classical tradition. So he's not the only person, in the English language. Looking back to the classical world and writing, odes inspired by the likes of Pindar and Horace, Edmund Spencer, who we'll talk about later on, Thomas Gray, a lot of these poets were looking, for inspiration to the classical world, both in terms of subject matter and also in terms of form.

And that's where this, interest in the ode form comes from, around the romantic era, the early 19th century. But Maiya, [00:03:00] looking at Keats perhaps as a starting point, where would you like to go in terms of one of the actual poems and what does it tell us about the ode form? 

Maiya: So I think if we're gonna start anywhere, we really have to start with what I personally think one of Keats's most famousodes, which isode Ode on a Grecian Urn is a poem that ekphrastic, which means it focuses on specifically a retelling of an art piece. This poem addresses specifically a Greek urn, and for those who have never seen a Greek urn before, what a Greek urn typically symbolizes is a story depicted in pictures that travel round the width of the urn.

And in this, there is an exploration of what that story represents, how it manages to keep a very permanent sense of time. And yet there is a sense of impending mortality, I think is probably the best way to put it. And it's really a, a meditation on beauty and storytelling and music and love and it's such a fantastic poem.

I think it's such a great place to start. Before we jump into the analysis of it, and I'd love to read a little bit for our listeners [00:04:00] today. I think it is worth noting that, you know, one of the poets that Joe mentioned, Edmund Spencer, he was writing in the late 15 hundreds.

and he was one of the first people to compose Englishode specifically. And what's really interesting is that as you move through the ode form, you see a kind of consistent reflection on specifically Greek stories. That is something that comes about in Spencer's poem, Epithalamion, Epithalamion by Edmund Spencer actually addresses a Greek myth that we actually talked about in our last episode, so I would hugely recommend for a little bit more context on that to go and listen to that episode.

It's the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, for those who don't know, it is a story about Orpheus who has lost his wife. His wife dies, but he's given the opportunity to bring her back from the underworld. And there's a story about how he has to travel outta the underworld without looking back at her. And only when he gets to land is he allowed to look back at her and then she will be saved.

However, of course, it's a very long journey. It's an arduous journey, and he ends up looking back and loses her forever. the [00:05:00] ode that Spencer writes is very focused on the tension between love and loss, and I really love the fact thatode on a Grecian Urn, reflect some of those sentiments even though we're in the 19th century for Keats's work, we are really leaning into some of those very similar undertones with the focus on the Greek mythologies here.

But I'd love to read the opening and then Joe, I'd love to get your thoughts on how you think this opening situates the poem as a whole. So for listeners, the opening Ode on a Grecian Urn goes as follows, thou still an ravished bride of quietness, thou foster child of silence and slow time sylvan historian who can thus express a flowery tale more sweetly than our rhyme.

What leaf fringe legend haunts about thy shape of deities or mortals, or of both? I absolutely love the way this poem opens. I think The way that we talk about the ode form is so often melodic. There is a storytelling there behind it. And the way [00:06:00] that this poem ebbs and flows from the beginning is something that I just think is so cleverly put together.

And again, we're focusing on a depiction of a piece of art here, a depiction of a story on an urn. And the way that, Keats manages to conceptualize the way that time passes around this urn, the foster child of silence and slow time really recognizes that art is something to be consumed by individuals, by that single person who can stare at this piece of art and take their own time with it.

And you know, in that way, when you're staring at a piece of art, time seems to slow down. It does seem to stop. And yet when you walk away, it's still going to be there. That story will continually be evolving in its own way, and I just, I love this opening. I really do. But Joe, what are your thoughts? What do you think this does to, set the scene for us?, 

Joe: you're absolutely right, Maiya. It really establishes A lot of the kind of key issues that the poem is gonna go on to explore. And this is something that goes right back to the Pindar tradition that we were talking about earlier on. Pindar [00:07:00] set out his odes in three distinct sections, the strophe, antistrophe, and the Epode. And this is very much that first section, which establishes the key themes. And right away when we read the opening of this poem, we know that this is gonna be an exploration not only of beauty and of time, but of the way in which beauty and time are mediated through artistic creation. And I'm so glad you mentioned the myth of Orpheus and Eurydice and obviously that's in relation to the Spencer poem, not to this one, but so many of those preoccupations are present here as well because obviously the way in which Orpheus is able to briefly, bring his wife back and they almost get back to the mortal world before he, turns back and the spell is broken, is he does it because his music is so beautiful that it creates magical, outcomes.

He's able to build an avenue for himself directly to the underworld and back again, simply through the beauty of his music. And effectively what we can view there is. A celebration of both the power and the limits of artistic creation. Artists can create things that, change the world, that change people's minds, that inspire generations.

[00:08:00] But there is also, of course, things that art cannot do. Art cannot prolong any individual's. Life art cannot bring people back from the dead, even though sometimes that people are rendered so beautifully in arts that it seems as though they have been. And all of those preoccupations are present here in these opening lines.

Keats talks, as Maiya mentioned about the slow time, the idea of the figures on the urn in the opening line describes them as still un ravaged. What the urn is, is a representation of a frozen moment in time and everything around the urn, obviously, which is a physical object. People have used it, people have admired it for generations, for thousands of years. All of those people's lives are constantly in flux, in motion. They are growing older, they are living, they are dying. They're falling in love, falling out of love, all the while. The figures on the urn remain fixed, remain unchanging. And there is on the one hand a real celebration of that permanence, that immortality, that art has, given these figures. And yet, Keats is also engaging in a much older literary tradition that goes right back to the work of Homer about actually is it better to be [00:09:00] alive forever and unchanging or is it better to be like we are mortal and fallible, but ultimately capable of dying because it's that finality of life that gives it its meaning. And this is something, as I mentioned that goes right back to Homer Iliad, where there is a real contemplation of whether or not it is better to be an Olympian God, full of eternal power and eternal youth, eternal beauty?

Or is it better to be somebody mortal who, yes, they will die, but that mortality, that knowledge, that their years are finite, gives their years meaning. And so all of these things are contained within, Keats's poem, which as May mentioned, I wanna just finish on this, is an ekphrastic poem, as I mentioned, a celebration or a contemplation of a piece of visual art.

It could be a painting, a sculpture, an urn in this case. And there's two things I wanna pick up on here. The first is that whenever a poet who is also an artist is writing about a piece of visual art, we have to view that as metafictional in a way, because they are creating artwork in response to a piece of artwork, and they are contemplating an artwork. So the things they're saying about the artwork [00:10:00] in the poem can be applied to the poem itself. So when Keats is talking about how art is able to enshrine beauty forever, there is a sense to which he's shining his own wheels. He's talking about his own poetry and its ability to transcend the passage of time. And if any regular listeners to Beyond the Verse are thinking, I've heard these themes before, they might be thinking back to our episode on Ozymandias, which I think is a really apt comparison. And if you haven't listened to that episode yet, I suggest you go and do it. Ozymandias, a poem inspired by a statue, an ancient Egyptian statue, but written by one of, Keats's contemporaries, Percy Shelly.

And again, I think so many of the themes there are present here as well, but I wanna just. Emphasize how this is about a moment in time in British and European history where writers were very much looking to the classical world of Greece and Egypt, and in many cases, physical objects. obviously Ozymandias is inspired by a statue of Ramesses, the Egyptian Pharaoh. And this poem is very much inspired by the urns that, Keats could have seen in the British Museum because there was this growing interest in the classical [00:11:00] world, both in terms of physical objects, but also what those objects represent.

Maiya: It's so interesting, Joe, that you were like, oh, well, regular listeners might be thinking of this one. 'cause actually, the poem that I was thinking of was our episode on Robert Browning, my last Duchess, and the kind of lasting nature of art and the conversation we had where we discussed in Browning's case was a criticism of the fact that art lasts forever.

And it gives you a sense of, being able to control what is created. And it makes me think of closing lines in Ode on a Grecian Urn, which is beauty, is truth, truth, beauty. That is all you know on earth and all you need to know because of course as a poet, as someone who is creating art, you have the power to make your own history, to make your own legacy here.

And yes, talk about the ode form, celebration is a word that comes up a lot. But I think there is a very fine line between celebration and longing because of course celebrating someone, something that has passed an event, whatever it happens to be, you are writing that as a poet into memory. You are writing a legacy for that thing, and it [00:12:00] will probably never happen again. That exact moment, that exact feeling. And I love the idea that this poem is kind of playing with that sentiment Because of course, through the poem we come to understand that this earn in, in the way it's described is beautiful. But there is a separation between the viewer and the story that is being told. There is a disconnect that we come to feel at the end of this poem where the speaker is quite uncertain in a sense of how to involve themself any further in that history, in that story.

And it really highlights the transience of art because of course, in Ozymandias in the case of the art behind the curtain of Browning speaker's wife, we have this real impression that art can be controlled and it can be told a story that may not necessarily be true. You know, in Browning's case, we were talking about A wife that was painted with this slight smirk on her face by Pandolf. And that was the one thing that drove Browning's speaker to insanity to potentially killing his partner. And yet that smile has been enshrined forever. And that is the one thing that if you apply this [00:13:00] logic beauty is truth, truth, beauty.

That's exactly the story that is told. We are led to question whether that's true or not. And yet here it's implied, but it's kind of heavily insinuated that actually the creation of art is the creation of legacy and there is no difference between the two of them.

So what this poem is doing is, it's an ode on the Grecian urn, but I don't ode to the Grecian urn. And you know, I love a title and I think that distinction is very, very important. 'cause as we'll go on to see many of the other odes we talk about are odes to items or odes to people. But this is an ode

On a topic that actually talks around it, but what do you think about that? Am I completely off piece there?

Joe: No, I think you're absolutely spot on, actually. And I think the nuance of that subtle titular change in comparison to Keats, to other roads, I think is a crucial one. Because you're right. What we effectively have here is Keats laying out an artistic manifesto, a thesis on what art is, and he's projecting it onto this urn rather than drawing it from the urn.

[00:14:00] and I think your comparison to Fra Pandolf, the Painter in Robert Browning's, My Last Duchess is a really important one because what we effectively have here is art means different things to different people, and those lines at the end of the poem. Beauty is truth, truth, beauty. It's really important to mention that those are quotations. In theory, those are the direct speech of the figures on the side of the ear. But of course those are Keats words. And what Keats is doing is Keats is taking his own view on what beauty is, and he is projecting it onto these, speakers who are of course silent.

They're just painted figures on a thousand year old object. But what it's a reminder of is that Keats is doing something altogether bigger in this poem than simply praising an object. What he's actually doing is through the praise of that object, he is expressing his views on what art is, what art means to people. And I think. We talked earlier on about how Horace turns the ode or, or changed what Pindar was doing into something altogether more nuanced. And I think nuance is the word I come back to when it comes to Keats and hisodes. Because odes tensibly at face value, what [00:15:00] this poem is doing is celebrating an object.

What act actually doing is celebrating all of the people who have interacted with that object and their own brief lives, their own fleeting interactions with this piece of art. And that's the thing that gives those figures on the urn, meaning those figures are only immortal so long as there are mortal people to view them and mortal people to admire how old and how beautiful this object is.

And that relationship between a static, immortal object and the flux that surrounds it, I think is really, the thing that is being praised and this owed.

Maiya: I couldn't agree more. And I think that's a, thread or a message that carries through a lot of Keats's work. You know, I'm looking at Two Autumn now, and there's a few lines in this poem in the final stanza that say. Where are the songs of Spring I, where are they think not of them. Thou has thy music too.

I think this inordinate focus on how, your environment or the art surrounding you can actually force you to reflect on yourself and your own intentions is such a strong message to carry. Because of course, as we mentioned at the [00:16:00] top of this episode, we witness, an evolution of the ode form that becomes increasingly more introspective.

What I find particularly interesting, I think, you know, earlier in my research for this episode, I was comparing few of the odesand I think it's a wonderful task to do. So I'd massively recommend any of our listeners to compare and contrast because it really brings about some interesting themes and like key differences really, because you look at Keats’sodes, and as I've they're very, very introspective.

They do a great job of kind of challenging the individual reader, Various points directly speaks to the reader. And there is an implied listener, I suppose, that really sits at odds to a poem like Emily Bronte is the lady in her guitar. And the reason I bring up this one is because it's a very, very shortode.

And I know there is some debate about whether it fits into the ode form, but for me, this poem is a mediation of celebrating a loved one, celebrating someone. They miss longing for that person. But it's mediated, again through music, through an art form, through the way that that missed person plays specifically a [00:17:00] guitar.

And again, I'm gonna root to a title here, The Lady to Her Guitar. And yet the guitar does not belong to the lady. The guitar belongs to an implied lover. And I think the way that, Bronte handles. Introspection here is so wildly different to the way Keats handles it. Keets offers the reader space to think, whereas Bronte here takes it on herself to be introspective, takes it on herself to exactly set out the terms of this relationship.

I mean, I love, love the stanza. it is as if the warm sunlight in some deep Glen should lingering stay when clouds of Tempest and of night had wrapped the parent orb away. There is something so magical and ephemeral and abstract about how this, wonderful relationship comes together. the way that the speaker misses this other person and the way that the musicality of that person is wrapped into the environment . It's so skillful and I think when you approach the ode form specifically, you know, as Joe said at the top [00:18:00] of this episode, it's actually quite a loose form because we have a huge array of kind of poems that fit under this very big umbrella. the ode form being at its core, a celebration or a missing of someone, a dedication, You really have to cast quite a wide net, and for me, comparing contrasting poems is such a great way to see the development of forms like this and to understand how those kind of puzzle pieces fit together. Obviously Emily Bronte best known for writing, Wuthering Heights, but she was also a poet.

And you see those differences I think between Keats who was primarily a poet and Bronte who was also a novelist. The way that they actually interpolate the environment and bring in these kind of more magical elements is so wildly different. I think because of the style in which they write, you'll see with Bronte, she actually casts form and stands as slightly more important than Keats does in many ways.

You know, I'm looking at this poem now and The Lady to Her Guitar is four stanzas four lines in each, and it's [00:19:00] very regular and that gives it this sort of enchanting, melodic movement through the poem. So when you get to the end and you have the final stanza, even so guitar, thy magic tone has moved the tear and walked the sigh has bid.

The ancient torrent flow, although it's very source, is dry. Have this sense of closure. It's a cyclical and quite pleasing feeling. Whereas I think Keats tends to leave the reader with slightly more discomfort. At least when I read Keats's poetry.

That's how I feel. There tends to be these moments of, challenge as Joso, Apley put it earlier where the reader is left or the listener is left with something that doesn't quite resemble what they walked into the poem with. I think that sits massively at odds to how Bronte makes us feel because, you know, the way that Bronte has written this poem specifically is so.

So poignant and so telling of her specific relationship or the speaker's relationship to this other person. Keats offers a little bit more room for interpretation, I think, but what do you think, Joe? I feel like I've gone off on a long one. There., 

Joe: Well, not at [00:20:00] all. I mean, any long rant that includes a mention of Wuthering Heights, , I'm gonna be happy with Maiya. You know that. I'm really glad you, brought up the form because I think this is an important point because obviously this is one of the episodes we've done about a specific type of poetry.

We haven't done odes of these episodes in the past, but it's important for readers to remember that the ode form is incredibly flexible. Because even though we've talked about different, traditions ofode, whether it's Pindar, whether it's ation, whether it's ic, writers in English don't have to conform to a certain set of, structural requirements like a set rhyme scheme or a metrical pattern. So that means that any decision a writer does take is entirely their own.

And we can really dig into why they've done that. And I just wanna zoom in on that stanza that Maiya read earlier on the second stanza of Bronte's poem. It is if the warm sunlight in some deep Glen should lingering stay when clouds of tempest and of night had wrapped the parent orb away. Now what we have here is a very, very simple alternating rhyme scheme. A, B, a, B. But what that allows us to do is really focus in on those rhyming words. 'cause I think there's so much going on here. Obviously the final word [00:21:00] of the first line that stands are is sunlight, which rhymes with night, which of course is its opposite. Sunlight and night, are representatives of opposite times of day. Likewise, with line two and line four stay and away, we have the sense of somebody on the one hand drawing something close to them, on the other hand, pushing it away. And I love the way in which the decision to use that rhyme scheme encourages you to focus on the words that are being compared and contrasted because it, allows Bronte to hold different ideas, intention with one another, and. Again, I've mentioned the word already, now's mentioned it too, but that nuance of the way the form has evolved since Pindar, for example, when actually it is perfectly possible to write a poem in praise of something that is still contested.

that is complicated, that is not straightforward. And that I think is really what's being explored in this stanza. Bronte's speaker is tussling with different impulses. and on the one hand, those impulses kind of feel akin to one another because the rhyme encourages you to view them in tandem, to view them as echoes of one another.

And yet the actual word that is being echoed [00:22:00] is the opposite of the original word. And I love the fact that her use of the alternating rhyme scheme, which again as I mentioned, is entirely her own decision because there's nothing in the ode form that suggests she had to use. It really allows her to, demonstrate the complexity of the praise poem that she's writing. 

Maiya: I think that's such a good point. And, you know, I'm conscious of time and I really want to move on to one of the other poets that we mentioned, Neruda. But what is so wonderful about the lack of formal constraint, I suppose, with ode, is gives so much room for movement.

It gives so much room for flexibility, and I think it's really important, as you said to mention that. There are tensions that can be held there because you can add as much formal constraint as you want to an ode still fit within those boundaries. And it massively will change, how you view the poem.

And you know, one that I really want to move on to that I think is such a good step into more modernode forms is Neruda's owed to my socks? I know you want to talk about this poem, so I'm very happy to let you lead on this section. But I think for listeners who are listening to us today, one line that I would really like to point out is from the final stanza and Neruda is [00:23:00] very open in this poem.

I would call it an raic poem. I would call it, a Dedication to an Art, which is this pair of socks that have been hand knitted. And even though it isn't AEG Grent U, The time and the labor that has been involved in the making of these socks. The love that is shown to them is something that is made so beautiful.

But this final stanza goes, the moral of myode this Beauty is twice beauty. And what is good is doubly good when it is a matter of two socks made of wool in winter. Now listeners will immediately notice this is a direct callback toode on Agre and earn Beauty is truth, truth, beauty. And here what Neruda is saying is. A slight disagree with that, but he's saying beauty is something that is experienced twice good is something experienced twice.

Because it is the initial feeling of it and the memories that are associated with that. With any art form, it is the immediate reaction to the art. whether that's a slightly more abstract feeling. You know when you look at a piece of art and it affects you and you're not sure [00:24:00] why, and then also the reason it affects you because of the experiences you've had or the history that you've come to associate with that work.

I'm sure many of our listeners today will have that with a song, for example, something that transports you back to a place or a time or a person that makes you happy.

You can have that with things that make you upset, that make you angry as well. the profound impact of art on your singular person is wholly dependent on the experiences you have around that. And I think the way that Neruda manages to boil this down to simply just a pair of socks in winter, the warmth that it provides and the very literal comfort that it brings to him, as well as the memory that is associated with that.

I mean, I'm sat here just smiling about it. I think it's such a lovely poem and so sweet. And that's the thing, you know, the ode doesn't have to be this great exclamation of how wonderful a specific person is. It can be something as simple as something that you keep close to your chest. But what do you think Joe?

Joe: Well, thanks Maiya. That was brilliant. I just wanna jump off the back of what you were saying there about, that [00:25:00] ending, 'cause it's so interesting 'cause obviously again, you have this quite elevated callback to a Keats poem. A kind of direct answer to, no, this is what beauty is, something quite abstract. And yet the final interpretation of that doubling, which I think you're absolutely right, it's about the act and then the memory of the act or the act and then the artistic representation of the act is there is an inherent playfulness in this poem because it's also just the first sock followed by the second sock. And that word playfulness, I think is so key here because. What Neruda is doing with the ode form, not only here, but in his many, many other odors, as you mentioned, we're gonna talk about ode thread, but he wrote so many oats about ordinary things, and that was a very deliberate choice. So obviously we've got here ode socks, ode tomatoes, all kinds of different things.

And I wanna start with that sense of playfulness, because I think what sets Neruda apart from the greatode writers who came before him, is that commitment to the ordinary, sometimes a commitment to the trivial. Because what he's doing is he's democratizing the form. He's saying an ode can be inspired by anything. and of [00:26:00] course Sox is such a great example. Not only is it a mundane item, but it's an item that almost everybody in the world owns. So that sense of, The subject matter for poetry belonging to everybody. the obvious question that neuter is asking is, or why can't poetry itself belong to everybody?

If everybody is capable of putting on a pair of socks or eating a tomato or whatever it is, why can't everybody have a stake in the poetry inspired by those everyday objects and everyday actions? And I think it's such an interesting exploration of how the ode form has changed, because if we go right way back to ancient Greece again for a moment, it was about celebrating achievements that were already great.

It's about representing greatness that already exists, whether it's an athletic achievement or a victory in war. What Neruda is doing and what writers are increasingly doing with the ode form is, why can't we find the greatness in things that were not already considered to be great? Why can't I take some of that, shine and that elevator status of the ode form and [00:27:00] apply it to something else?

And it massively opens up the possibilities of the form. I mean, a pair of socks is not a traditional source of poetic inspiration, and yet Neruda shows it is as worthy of that as an object from the ancient world or a great athletic achievement. And I love the way he does that. And, When I was in visiting Chile last year, I was lucky enough to actually visit Neruda's houses.

He has two houses, one in the, the capital Santiago, and one in, and this is so typical of him as a poet, this commitment to objects, to simplicity, to finding the beauty in everyday things. I mean, there were all these stories in his houses about how he had to, he only served drinks out of colored glass because he was convinced it tasted better. And, this really eccentric figure who had this absolute commitment to ordinary objects. it's so interesting, and I hope any listeners, I mean, we are touching on the odeshere, but any listeners who haven't read Neruda's work before was remarkable. Chilean poet, won the Nobel Prize, and lived really exceptional life.

You know, helped refugees get the Spanish Civil War and various other things. so, you know, I do encourage you to go in and read [00:28:00] more of his poetry, but I think that's what I would, look to focus on. We're gonna talk about this in o to thread as well. is the way in which he's able to transform the possibilities of what an ode can be.

And I think it's about taking the question of greatness and finding it rather than simply, reaffirming it.

But Maiya talking about ode thread, where would you like to go and, how does that poem differ from, o to my socks?

Maiya: I think it differs quite significantly. It's interesting that, so much of Neruda's work is focused on. This kind of everyday simplicity, the beauty in ordinary objects. And actually what I think he manages to do in Ode to Thread is something quite vastly different to what he manages to do in Ode to My Socks, because in Ode to My Socks, obviously we have this hyper focus on these two individual objects.

The way that they're described is made so much greater than what they are at the core. Actually, I think whatode to Thread does is almost the opposite. He uses an extended metaphor of this thread, but what the thread actually is, is it weaves through every single [00:29:00] human life. It weaves through poetry, literature, art, animals, nature.

I mean, the list goes on. The way that the thread of life, I'll call it, is explored in this poem is again taking, its core, a very simple item, a thread and weaving it through all of these much, much greater kind of. Motifs and symbols, but what it serves to do is, you know, you might disagree, instead of taking something small and making it great, I feel like the use of a thread, something that is used to pull something tighter is actually what we see happen in this poem.

The thread goes through so many of these objects and pieces of nature, that actually what it serves to do is pull all of them closer together. you know, this poem feels a bit like a hug to me. It feels like it brings you into it. You are invited into the world of the poem, and I think whatode to Thread does that is so different to many of Neruda's other odes is that it really focuses on.

Everything all at once. It doesn't focus on one singular thing. You get a lot of movement in this poem. You know, we move even in the, [00:30:00] first couple of lines, I'm looking from poetry to sheep, to flocks, heroes, minerals, love, fire, a mountain. There is this real speed to the way that Neruda manages to navigate the landscapes of the poem.

And what it does is it brings all of those things in a light tension for sure, because of course, these things are not naturally next to one another. You don't have, love and fire these abstract kind of passionate emotions with a very physical mountain or a quite literal sheep. But the way that he manages to push all of these into, I say the landscape of poetry, but a singular field, let's say of thought.

Really wonderful. And what the ode does in that sense, and the way that the ode functions here is to elevate all of those things to the same level. There is no preferential treatment here, but instead everything is united. it's a very universal poet, but I'd love to know your thoughts on this poem and, you know, if you disagree with me, please let me know 

Joe: no, not at all. I think, you're absolutely right that obviously if we think about what a [00:31:00] thread literally is, it's an object that we use to bind things together. And of course, what I love about the poem is we can therefore view it as an extended metaphor of the thing that Neruda is praising is nothing individual about the human experience.

It is the singularity of the human experience. We are all incredibly different. We all live different lives and we practice different faiths and we love different people, but we all have hopes and dreams and we all love and want to be loved, et cetera. And it's that focus on the uncelebrated thing that binds us together rather than the sum of our existence.

And I think, again, in much the same way that I talked about with Keats, the thing that he looks to is art. I mean, right from the opening lines of this poem, this is the thread of poetry, he says, and as Maiya says, it actually turns out to be the thread of everything. So what he's saying here is that everything is poetry.

And, to paraphrase one of my, great poetic heroes, John Cooper Clark, who is himself paraphrasing somebody else, all arts tends to [00:32:00] poetry. I think poetry speaks to something about the artistic process. So what he's really saying when he says this is the thread of poetry, is this is the thread of human artistic creation. And therefore, the thing that does unite us is the ability to create, the ability to inspire and be inspired, and. I just absolutely love the fact that every time he mentions an object or a geological phenomenon, the sky, the sea, the mountains, what he's actually talking about there is not so much the physical presence of those things, but the way in which they have themselves been, understood through artistic creation.

We think about mountains and almost every mountain in human history has a mythological origin story about how, I dunno, it was dragged up from the ground by some guard or, you know, the waves were the, charging horses of Poseidon or whatever it is. He is looking at the world around us and he's saying, what unites everybody on this earth? It is our ability to create stories inspired by random geological rock formations, for example. And it's that commitment to the artistic act that I think is at the core of this poem and what [00:33:00] this poem is doing. It's such a wonderful ode.

Maiya: What I really want to kind of draw listeners attention to today is that, of course a lot of the poems we've been talking about on this episode are quite grand in their outlook. Even talking about Neruda socks, we have these descriptions that are quite bountiful and they create these quite dramatic landscapes, dramatic ideas.

But I do want to impress that the ode form doesn't have to be that, you know, we talked a lot about the freedom that it provides and the lack of limitations really. excellent example of this is a fundamentally British poem, is the way that I would describe this is owed on a Grayson Perry Urn by Tim Turnbull.

Now for a little bit of context for listeners, as I'm sure many of them won't know who Grayson Perry is. Grayson Perry is an English artist. He creates, ceramic vases, you know, we're talking about the Grecian urns. He does tapestries. But he's also kind of a, contemporary critical thinker as well.

He talks a lot about prejudices, fashion, his thoughts on like what Britain is and what it stands [00:34:00] for. And what I think is great about Turnbull's poem is that not only is Grayson Perry a kind of British icon, but he also explores in this poem a lot of British stereotypes.

I mean, I'm looking at Burberry clad Manchester to Motherwell or Slough, the Queen's Highway hatchbacks tuned to UK garage. Like these are incredibly specific experiences to a very specific part of England.

You know, I'm from the north of England. These are things that like I grew up with, you see a car racing down a country road and they're blaring some of the worst music you can imagine in your whole life. And it's this real sense of specificity, I think is what I want to kind of impress on, listeners right now is that a lot of the poems we talked about are grand.

they have these. Very universal themes and feelings, but an ode doesn't have to be universal. It can be specific to a time, a place, a person. makes it an ode is a celebration of that fact. Yes, this,ode on a Grayson Perry Urn is so incredibly specifically [00:35:00] British, but it also celebrates all of those things that make that moment or that place wonderful.

Even though they are portrayed in some ways as dangerous, you know, I'm looking at the screech of tires and squeals of girls. These are paralleled because they offer a sort of danger or excitement or nervousness and yet it's a celebration of those things. It's a celebration of growing up, of being a young person in the uk, specifically in Manchester or Slough in the northern part of the uk.

And, you know, for me, this is a poem that speaks to me significantly more than maybe a Keats's poem would or an Neruda poem would, because those are experiences that I've seen. Those are experiences that I've had. And I love the way that Turnbull really managed to, the ode in a way that is so specific that he shows that, it can be simple and quiet and understated, and you can pick up on these things that, I'm sure one in 10 readers understands this poem and maybe nine out of 10 have never had that experience in their life.

So it can [00:36:00] be as simple as an ode for you and you only for the poet only. That's what makes it so universal and so beautiful.

But I'd love to hear your thoughts on it, Joe.

Joe: No, I agree. I think I love that point you make about specificity and it brings me onto the final poem I'd like to discuss before we close out the episode, which is, doing something very, very different. But what I love about this form, Hopefully listeners have got a sense of this over the course of the episode, is its range both in terms of subject matter, but also in terms of its grandiosity or its kind of playfulness, its self-refer reality.

I mean, you can do so many different things with this form. And I think this brings me on to my final poem I'd like to discuss, which is Eavan Boland’s ‘Ode to Suburbia’, which is doing something very, very different. Eavan Boland, one of my favorite poets, Irish 20th and 21st century poet. truly, truly remarkable. Writer. And what she's doing with this poem is she's kind of rewriting the story of the form, which has historically been written by men about male accomplishments or indeed artworks like the Keatsian urn probably made [00:37:00] by a man. And what she does initially in this poem is so interesting because the opening stanzas portray space as dominated by women, suburban domestic spaces.

And initially she presents them this kind of horrifying, she talks about varicose veins and gardens and this kind of really unsettling image. And yet the celebration comes through her finding the things about that environment that's a really defiant and really subversive. And I just like to read the end of that poem where she takes something as simple as a household cat and transforms it into something really, really amazing.

And she says. By this creature drowsing now in every house, the same lion who to strips once off zebras, who now sleep small beside the coals and may on a red letter day, catch a mouse. And there is this, wonderful ability to, rewrite a tradition that is typically, dominated by male writers about male concerns.

And I, use those, words in inverted commas by focusing it on [00:38:00] something domestic, more traditionally feminine. And by writing something really defiant, both initially because of its kind of horrifying imagery. And at the end of it, because of its willingness and its ability to elevate everyday objects or everyday animals like a household cat to something fierce and aggressive like a lion shows once again, how actually what she's doing with the form is very different to, the Grayson Perry poem because what she's doing as she's trying to. Use this poem as a means of speaking to a much broader societal concern. So there's nothing about the ode form. That means it has to be about grand subjects, but there's also nothing about the ode form that limits it. It can be a poem designed to have major social change or change public perception on an object or an idea, or it can simply be a celebration of your favorite pair of socks in winter.

I mean it's the versatility of the form that I come back to again and again. And I think it's the same reason that poets continue to come back to it. I mean, the Grayson Perry and poem that you mentioned was published as recently as 2009, so this conversation is still [00:39:00] ongoing. If we were to rerecord this podcast episode in a year or 10 years or 50 years, there would be newodes.

I mean, somebody out there probably is writing an ode to TikTok as we speak, and that's a wonderful thing. The conversation continues. The thread, as Neruda would say, is unbroken. 

Maiya: I think that's such a wonderful way to put it and a great way to close out today's episode. I really enjoyed our conversation and I can't wait for the episode in five years or 10 years or whenever it is where we have a million more odes to talk about. For now, that is all we have time for, and next episode, we will be talking about the man with the saxophone by poet. Ai. I am very excited for that one. I think it's a really rich poem to get into. So I can't wait to sink our teeth into that one. But for now, it's goodbye for me.

Joe: and goodbye for me and the whole team at PoemAnalysis.com and Poetry+.