Poetry+ Question Time: Debunking Stereotypes, Poetic Movements, and More (Transcript)
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Joe: [00:00:00] Welcome to Beyond the Verse, a poetry podcast brought to you by the team at poemanalysis.com in association with Poetry+. I'm Joe, and I'm here with my co host, Maiya. And today we're going to be doing a Q&A episode mostly put together from questions from some of our Poetry+ subscribers. And as a reminder, any non subscribers who want to make sure their questions get answered in future question and answer episodes can sign up for a membership at poemanalysis.com. So, Maiya, I'd like to kick off by asking you a question from one of our subscribers, and they would like to know, how do we approach analyzing the poems on the podcast, and how do we go about breaking them down?

Maiya: Oh, this is such an interesting question because obviously, you know, you and I both know, Joe, we don't just pluck them out of thin air with these episodes and with the podcast going forward. We want to show a really diverse range of poets. So we're always keeping, our listeners interested.

And we also get to explore some poems that, you know, we might not [00:01:00] necessarily have read or studied in depth before. We are obviously always going to have our favorites. I know the episode that we just did on Danez Smith was one of my favorites, and that was a suggestion from me. 

Well, before every podcast episode, , Joe and I will always meet up, we'll have our little chat, , and discuss our separate readings of the poems. We don't always come to an episode with the same intentions for the poem, with the same reading. So it always makes for a really interesting conversation. So, Joe, obviously when we have our conversations, , what do you think is the best thing that comes out of those, , initial thoughts and ideas?

Joe: I think as you say, it's really important that we do our reading separately initially, because otherwise we might end up parroting each other's ideas, and I think one of the things that really works about the podcast is that we bring different interpretations, different associations to the conversation, and I think that the longer the, Podcast goes on, you know, the more readers and listeners will begin to get a sense of the kind of poetry that you feel an attachment to and the kind of things I'm more likely to point out and, you know, I think that's what gives conversations about poetry in any kind of art form, it's richness, it's diversity of thought, diversity of ideas, And [00:02:00] it's very different discussing a poem on a podcast, discussing anything on a podcast, to doing it in an academic forum, because we're not trying to write an essay, we're not necessarily trying to make a coherent argument about the poem, we're more just touching upon different aspects that we find interesting, and the medium really suits that, and that means hopefully our conversations feel flowing and, pleasant to listen to.

Maiya: I think also the benefit of us talking about those poems is we come at the poem from very different positions in even an educational sense. We obviously both have our master's degrees in studying English, but I can come up a poem very often from. a kind of more abstract perspective, I read it as someone who also writes, and for you having a slightly different perspective means that we're always picking up on different things.

I know that I maybe have a tendency to focus on the greater context and the meanings of the poem and, and you'll be able to pick up those more specific, , methods or motifs that I might not necessarily see.

Joe: That's where the magic happens. 

Maiya: So we have another question, from one of our subscribers what are poetic movements and do all poets [00:03:00] need to belong to them?

Joe: Well it's a really good question and The answer, in its simplest form, is no. Not all poets need to belong to poetic movements, but poetic movements effectively are associations, groupings, gatherings of poets who share similar philosophies. They can be very formal, sometimes they involve groups of poets putting out formal written manifestos that illustrate their shared views.

Other times these are kind of associations that become clear after the fact, or sometimes poetic movements can be defined by people not in the movement, by critics or by subsequent poets. Theorists who look back but basically a poetic movement refers to a group of poets or thinkers Who share a certain ideology or a certain belief in what their poetry is attempting to do? And this actually ties in really well with another question for one of our Poetry+ subscribers ryan Who would like us to do more series on the history of poetry and different poetic movements? So maybe we'll get to that in a future episode But we've got so much to talk about and it's been really exciting to hear what you guys want to hear from The podcast and if any of you do have You If you have specific episodes in mind that you'd like to put towards us, you'd like Maiya [00:04:00] and I to discuss, you can email us at beyondtheverse@poemanalysis.com with your suggestions. You can also send future questions you might have for Q&A episodes to that address.

But if in the meantime you cannot wait to learn more about poetic movements and the history of poetry, there are many, many resources available. On poemanalysis.com in particular if you are Poetry+ subscriber, you will have access to the PDF learning library, which contains over 240 unique PDFs on all manner of things including poets poetic techniques rhyme schemes and Hopefully answering Ryan's question poetic movements.

So whether it's surrealism romanticism or more modern poetic movements There is a ton of resources there if you can't wait for us to get to on the podcast

Maiya: So Joe, the real question is, who are you excited to talk about, or which poetic movement 

are you most excited to talk 

Joe: look, when it comes to poetic movements, the early 20th century is the golden era. It feels like everybody and their dog was starting a poetic movement at the time, and I find the intersection of those movements to be absolutely fascinating. So whether, you know, [00:05:00] it's one of the more famous ones, like the Surrealists, who had some completely bonkers things to say, but there are loads of interesting ones, but I think the intersection of modernism surrealism dadaism in the 1910s and 20s is the place that I would be really excited to go. What about you Maiya? 

Maiya: One of the more interesting kind of areas of poetry that I'd really love to dive into would be the imagist movement. , so hopefully we'll be able to release an episode about that very, very soon.

Joe: fantastic, I look forward to it Now, Maiya, I would love to know, and this is a great question for one of our subscribers, if you could meet one poet, living or dead, who would it be and what would you talk about?

Maiya: I am going to give a bit of a cheat answer to this because I'd ideally like to talk to two poets in conversation. I would love to have a conversation with Sylvia Plath and Ted Hughes. I think the way that their work intertwines with one another and all of the conversations that are had between them would be such a fascinating topic.

And I'd love to explore their own interpretations of that and, you know, how much [00:06:00] as readers we take from that when actually they may have been very separate.

Joe: It's a brilliant choice. I mean, I would love to sit in on that conversation if you'll have me, but if you're going to, I'm going to take two as well. So, , first of all, I'd love to have a sit down conversation with Emily Bronte. , she was a real favourite of mine when I was a teenager.

I really fell in love , with Wuthering Heights, and through that kind of discovered her poetry. So I would love to discuss all manner of things with her. I think there's a real fascination with any poet or artist that passes away at a relatively young age. I'd love to know what she wanted to write that she never got a chance to.

I'd love to know, you know, did she really write a second novel that was burned after her death? These are all the things I'd love to get into. And the second one I'd love to have a sit down conversation with is a poet called Fernando Pessoa, who, if listeners aren't familiar, he's a little bit less famous than Emily Bronte.

He was a Portuguese poet of the 20th century who, uh, was relatively unknown during his lifetime, largely because he published under what he called heteronyms, which were these alternative identities. And it's different to just a pseudonym, which would be a different name. , he [00:07:00] created identities for dozens and dozens of these other writers who will eventually transpire to be him after his death.

And his work was collated by friends and family after his death into a collection called the book of disquiet, which is a mind bogglingly interesting book, really fascinating, incredibly dense. And I would just love to talk to this guy about. Why he felt the need to write these different identities and why he didn't feel that he could write under his own name and all manner of things.

So, Fernando Pessoa and Emily Bronte are my selections.

Maiya: So another question we have is, Should poetry be read or performed? And why are some spoken word poets not revered as much as other poets? Now this is such an interesting question, I'd love to hear your 

Joe: Well, it's a really interesting question and a really complicated one which has its roots in, historical institutions that dictated poetry, in class, in race, and gender, and there's so much to get into here, but I'll answer the first part of the question and I'd love to throw it back to you. I think, first of all, both is a simple answer.

I think that there is poetry that naturally lends [00:08:00] itself to spoken performance and there is poetry that perhaps is less performative in nature, but I think there are loads of examples online, there are loads of live examples throughout history of people who are able to do interesting things performing poetry live and give the poem Another lifespan, if you will, , another way of being interpreted that's very different to the written word and actually, if listeners haven't already checked out our episode about Danez Smith, we talk in that podcast quite extensively about performativity. Yeah, so the answer is both. I mean, I, you know, As a poetry lover, I love watching people perform their work, I love watching people perform other people's work, but of course poetry reading can also be a deeply personal thing, it can be done quietly, it can be done in a cafe in isolation. So both is the simple cop out answer. I'm going to throw the harder bit of the question back to you, Maiya. Why are some spoken word poets not as revered, and why have they not been given the credit they deserve in recent times?

Maiya: I mean, as you say, it's a very complicated question. And a lot of it does stem from institutional bias against certain poets. Unfortunately, [00:09:00] as many of our listeners will probably already be aware,

poetry, for a very long time, was seen as something that only a certain group could participate in. And unfortunately, that tended to be older, white men. There was a separation that resulted from that.

And unfortunately, because these people were put into positions of power within poetic institutions , awards were then given to people who looked like them and wrote like them and spoke like them. This pushed so many incredibly talented poets to the fringes of society where they had to create separate spaces in order to perform their work, in order to publish their work, and the spoken word poetry scene became a bit of a safe haven for those who had been excluded from the canon.

That, unfortunately, resulted in a real divide where spoken word poetry was seen as something not as worthy as the published written word, when actually it was two parallel streams. And that's [00:10:00] the other thing, right? You are looking at institutions that have access to finance, are able to publish these books, are able to circulate them in bookshops and libraries.

And if that is all kind of feeding this very specific group of people. You know, as someone who is maybe not fully literate, hundreds of years ago, you're not walking into the, club at the end of your street to hear a spoken word piece being performed. You're being told that this book that's in the front window of this bookshop is what you should be reading and what you should be listening to.

So actually a lot of it comes down to a division between, you know, financial access as well.

Joe: Yeah, I think that's definitely right. I think finance plays a huge part of it. Access to education, obviously a literate audience of the audiences that are deciding who wins awards, so if you can read, if you have access to education, but also if you have access to money to buy books, you are going to be the person shaping the cultural conversation in ways that people who were less literate or less financially able weren't able to.

Maiya: Absolutely. I think one [00:11:00] really great example of that is the influx of patois literature and patois performers. And if you're a white upper middle class reader, that would not have been your first port of call, due to all of those factors. 

Joe: Yeah, I think that's a brilliant take and I think one of the important things to remember here is that the dislocation between written and spoken poetry is a relatively modern idea. I mean, if we think about some of the great revered poetry of ancient history, it was all oral poetry or poetry set to music.

So, you know, we're gonna be doing a podcast episode on the Greek poet Sappho very soon, who wrote almost exclusively work to be performed live accompanied by music. Homer, the great epic poet of ancient Greece, these were poems that were performed aloud. So this idea that poetry that is oral in nature is somehow not award worthy, really doesn't stand up to much scrutiny when we consider that some of the most prestigious poems in history were written to be performed. 

Maiya: So leading on from that, we had a question from one of our subscribers that asks, what are your views on awards in the poetry world? For example, the T. S. [00:12:00] Eliot Prize, the Nobel prize.

Joe: Well, , it's a fascinating question. I mean, on the one hand, , congratulations to people who win awards, and I'm going to throw this back to you in a minute, because for listeners who aren't aware, we have an award winner in the studio with us today, and it's not me. , But I think what the question's getting at is are there problems with these awards, and are there limitations to what can be expected of them? And, of course, awards give a fairly narrow view of the poetic world or the artistic world or whatever world they're giving to it, right? There are more great collections and there are more great individual poems than there are awards to give to them, if that makes sense So obviously a poem that wins an award or a collection that wins an award normally You know is followed by a period of success in terms of extra sales But also in terms of invitations to speak and potentially you know Those poets are more likely to get prestigious roles within academic institutions, et cetera, et cetera.

So, on the one hand, it runs the risk of narrowing the field of poetry, and people might think there is less great poetry out there than there is, because not every great poem wins an award. But also, it's really important, I think, to look behind the prestigious names of these awards. So we think about the Nobel Prize, or the T.

S. [00:13:00] Eliot Prize, we think of them as these slightly abstract things that sort of exist in a vacuum, but of course they don't. These awards are decided by panels, and those panels have, as we've already spoken about, been historically from the cultural and economic elites. So, who is giving the Nobel Prize? Who is giving the T.S. Eliot Prize?

And lots of these prizes have done great work in recent times to diversify their panels and to change the way they grant awards, but Historically. When you look at the winners of, let's just take the Nobel Prize, there are more winners of the Nobel Prize from Scandinavia than there are from Africa. And if you look at the populations of those respective regions, that doesn't quite add up.

And when you look at people who didn't win the Nobel Prize or the T. S. Eliot Prize for their work, often it is not a quality on the work itself, but a quality on what was expected and what was regarded as award worthy by a relatively small group. But anyway, Maiya. Without wishing to trash awards, because a great many of them are wonderful, and I can safely say that the prize you were awarded was very justly so. Tell us a little bit about it, and what are your views on it?

Maiya: I mean, look, I [00:14:00] won my first award when I was 17 years old. I look back at the poetry that I wrote then and the poetry that I write now , they are vastly, vastly different. I consider myself very, very lucky to have won the handful of awards that I have. And obviously, as someone who is in that privileged position, I love awards. It's great. Thank you very much for them. However, I do also understand that, There is a lot of struggle that comes with that, as a young poet who I've been submitting to things since I was 15 and I won my first award when I was 17. That is a very, very unique position to be in as a poet full stop. I then had a huge dry spell where I didn't win anything. I was submitting. If anything, winning the award made me submit to more.

Made me enter competitions. Each of these competitions, each of these panels, as you say, are judged by a particular set of people. And I found that as I went through my poetic journey, I would start to appeal to who was on that panel if they, [00:15:00] and it often is the case, they release who's on that panel, , prior to the competition's end date.

I would always do my research. I would look at who the poet was, what they wrote about, what their common themes were. I would look at the poems that I'd written. I would potentially write new ones 

It's not a science, you know, picking something that's going to win this huge award. Ultimately, these decision panels might be 10, 5, 2 people. They're going to choose something that speaks to them as an individual, something that they think has value, and value is something that we can't necessarily put one broad brushstroke over and say, well these are all the poems that are valuable, and these are all the poems that are not.

It's very much down to personal preference. So awards are great. And obviously, as someone who has experienced the joy of winning one of those, I would say that the confidence it gives you is absolutely unparalleled in it. Allows you to think, you know, that you can be a poet there's always [00:16:00] that kind of little voice in the back of your head that thinks, is being a poet, a career, is this something that, I can make money off? Is it something I can survive off of? Is it something that I can do for the rest of my life and love it as much as I did when I first started for a lot of people, that voice doesn't really ever go away.

But it's the acceptances, it's the competition wins, it's the shortlists that affirm their position within that space. And I would always say to kind of any young writers, any aspiring writers, keep pushing because someone, one magazine, one competition, one huge award will respond to you at some point. And if that's the, the yes that you need, you'll get it eventually.

Your position as a poet isn't dictated by who likes you or who doesn't. If you've put pen to page and written something that you're proud of, that's all you need.

Joe: Yeah, I couldn't agree more, and I think one thing that's just come to my mind, of course, which is worth remembering about these award ceremonies, is often [00:17:00] awards include a financial prize, and that can be huge. People don't go into poetry to make their millions, and It's good that they don't, because most people won't.

In fact, the number of poets who really have achieved major financial success, , in comparison to other comparable mediums, like novel writing, is tiny. 500, 1, 000, you know, these kind of awards can be huge for poets. They can give them the space, they can give them the time to continue writing, and those awards, obviously, are especially significant for people who are coming from more disadvantaged backgrounds. Because it gives them the legitimacy to go and, you know, write that next collection which could be the one that really establishes their name in the poetic world. And, there are some awards, like the Nobel Prize, which I believe the prize money now is, near to a million euros, where you can be set for life.

But my goodness, If there are any philanthropic listeners with deep pockets who want to start funding these awards, then, we would more than applaud you to do so, because, we need more of them out there so that young poets and developing poets can access not only the esteem that comes with being an [00:18:00] award, but also the financial rewards that follow.

Maiya: I mean that point you make about finance, I can't impress enough how critical that is I was very lucky to win the Mono Poetry Prize in 2022, and the financial prize that they gave was 500.

At the time, I was at uni, I was working as well as doing my degree, I was studying for my exams, I was writing my dissertation, and That money not only allowed me to stop doing that part time work, which was taking up Friday, Saturday, Sunday, on top of my Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, uni schedule, it allowed me to write more and it allowed me to submit to more things.

Because obviously a lot of these poetry competitions or small magazines will take a nominal fee, you know, 5, 10 to submit in the first place in order to run them. And it allowed me to get one of the biggest publications I've had to this date. Like, for me, and for any kind of aspiring poet, that money can [00:19:00] be life changing at that moment.

Joe: Yeah, definitely, and One of the things I think people often mistake about poets and artists in general is this idea of divine inspiration.

The idea that poetry or art comes from, the skies, almost. It doesn't. You know, poetry and art form is like any other piece of work. You need time, you need space, you need security, and a lot of that is financial security. You need a place to write, therefore you need to be able to pay rent, or you need to have access to somewhere to live, you need time to write, therefore you need to not be working multiple jobs all the time.

So, there are problems with award ceremonies and there are issues with awards, but my goodness, anything that gives poets and writers the chance and the space to produce more work is something that I'm always going to be hugely pro.

Maiya: And there's definitely far more, I mean, even in the space of the nearly 10 years I've been writing, there's a huge influx of smaller indie publications or smaller magazines offering those kind of lower figures as little rewards or trying to actively make a difference , to a [00:20:00] smaller community of poets who haven't necessarily been published before or recognized before.

I think that's one of the lovely things about the poetry community is that there's a huge diversity now. And I would say that as much as your T. S. Eliot Prizes, your Forward Prize for Poetry are these huge names. There's a lot more access than there ever was before. And there's a lot more opportunity to do things.

I mean, Joe, part of the reason we met is because you decided to publish me in your magazine. You were supporting kind of those things. Smaller community writers. So it makes a huge difference from every step up that you can take.

Joe: Best decision I ever made. Now, Maiya, we've rightly been called out. When are we going to discuss Shakespeare?

Maiya: It's coming soon. I promise. We obviously understand Shakespeare has a huge, huge role in the poetic world, and we will discuss his sonnets in one episode. Joe and I have discussed it thoroughly that we ought to dedicate a whole episode to doing [00:21:00] so. But it's a very fair point to call us out on it.

Obviously, we have chosen a selection of poets at this point who have written well after Shakespeare, so I think that the time is definitely due.

Joe: I think so, and, you know, he occupies such a vast space, not only in the actual poetic landscape, but almost more importantly, in the public's consciousness of poetry. You think of a poet, you think of Shakespeare, and we're of course gonna, do him justice in an episode , as Maia mentioned, but good things come to those who wait. If there are any poems or poets that you would like us to cover sooner rather than later, you can email us at beyondtheverse@poemanalysis.com with your suggestions. We would absolutely love to hear them.

Maiya: So speaking of the public consciousness and the public's reception of, kind of, poets as a whole, really, one of our listeners has rightly flagged, there is an archetypal sad, lonely poet stereotype. So Joe, where do you think that comes from and how accurate do you think that is?

Joe: Well, I can't wait to hear what you think about this because you know more poets than I do. , in terms of where it [00:22:00] comes from, I think you've got to go back to the Romantics. I think when we think of the Shelleys, the Keats, the Byrons, we do think of, a young male poet who is continually depressed and that depression somehow yields great poetic meaning. Is it fair? Well, in the case of those poets, I think they were young, they were relatively depressed, and they did write great poetry, so I suppose, congratulations. But, obviously, it is an incredibly narrow view of what poetry is. It's a view that is rooted in the poet as somebody male, and as somebody white and European. Which, as we know, is not a fair reflection of the poetic world. It's also been sort of corroborated by the way that we depict poets on screen. I think in more recent times, I think films that engage with poets tend to focus in on those kind of renderings. Go back a little bit further to 19th century French poets like Arthur Rimbaud.

Again, it sells. The idea of the young, divinely gifted, but somehow cursed poet, it sells. It's a good image. Is it [00:23:00] fair? And is it true? No. But I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Maiya: Part of me thinks it comes from that Wordsworth, Daffodils line, I wandered lonely as a cloud. That always crops up in that sort of depiction as the poet as someone who is. Distant and forlorn and, as someone, you know, abstracted in a sense from the real world, , Do I think it's accurate? As a poet, I have to say no, I don't necessarily think that I'm sad and lonely, um, and I would say that the poets that I know also aren't sad and lonely, however, I do think that is some truth in the fact that as a poet or as a writer, you do in some ways have to do it alone, not lonely, but alone.

You effectively, you know, you sit down with your notebook, you sit down with your pen and. you write your understanding of the world or what you choose to at the time. That can be comedic, that [00:24:00] can be dramatic, that can, as they say, be sad and lonely, but do I think that's the overall brushstroke for all poets?

Absolutely not. 

I must say that I think one of the criticisms I have , for this image as a whole is kind of what's propagated , in schools and education. There's not a lot of educational establishments that actually promote those funnier poems or love poems with a more upbeat feel. There tends to be a resting on those poems that have a bit more.

Heaviness to them, , I think that obviously does add to this understanding of, of the poet as sad and lonely and, and removed from society, but I, I, I don't think it's true at all.

Joe: No, I think you're right, and obviously on some level, poets are people who are deeply contemplative, and they think about the world, and when you think about the world for a long time, you know, a lot of us will focus on the ills and the things that are wrong with society, and perhaps it's fair to say your average poet is more cognizant of the things that are wrong with the world than the average person on the street, and maybe that is [00:25:00] still true. somewhat depressing. I mean, I think we all have that feeling of watching the news sometimes and thinking, God, aren't things awful?

Well, in many ways, there are poets out there who sort of make that their living, but it's definitely not a fair reflection of the whole form. And, and just going back to something you said about it being something that people do alone, I mean, we've already mentioned poetic movements. I mean, the idea of the sad lonely poet completely is belied by the fact that there are all these examples of, you know, Poetry being this deeply collaborative process of people coming together to share ideas, to share ways of thinking about poetry.

So, I think in short our answer is no. It's not a fair reflection of poets in general.

Maiya: Yeah, it's very easy to, to sit there and imagine that, the poem that you're reading in front of you was the creation of just one person when actually, You're not necessarily reading all of the influences that have come from it, the people that have critiqued it in its first draft form, the people that it was written about, or the people that it was written to, or the people that inspired it, you know? It is very easy to look at a [00:26:00] poet or a poem in isolation, but also I think as a society as well, this doesn't just fall across poetry. I think as consumers of art, we do have a tendency to flick towards something that has a bit more of that heaviness to it, has a bit more sadness to it.

That's why, with TV or movies, dramas are so impactful because they make you feel something that isn't just comedic. Obviously comedy has its place, but is it something that's going to make you really deeply feel or consider on a moment or a relationship? Not necessarily. So I think my answer is no, but obviously you do have to consider the wider range of art as well because In a lot of ways, the sad, lonely poet is a very marketable image.

Joe: Yeah, it's where the awards are.

.

we actually got a question from an aspiring poet who I'm sure isn't sad or lonely. I'm going to throw it to you, Maiya, because they would like to know, how do you overcome writer's block and where do you find your inspiration?

Maiya: Oh, I love this question, because writer's block [00:27:00] is very real, and such a strange feeling. Obviously, imagination is not a bottomless well. You get to a point where, you don't really know what to write about or everything that you've been basing your poems on has kind of suddenly exhausted itself or maybe in that moment you're absolutely blissfully happy and have nothing sad or lonely to write about. One of the best pieces of advice that I ever received was to keep a very thin skin for your writing and a very thick skin for your criticism. I think a lot of poetry is about really delving into, you know, yourself or your situation or your understanding of the goings on of the world and being able to really pull back those layers.

I have always, always found the most helpful thing when I have writer's block is to use other poets, use movies, , use things that are going on in the world around you. Write a poem about a friend or a family member. I mean, I've written poems based off [00:28:00] scenes in movies, just trying to reinvent the language.

I've imagined scripts. I've written probably about ten or eleven poems after Frank Ocean songs. Just because you can pick up, phrases or, moments or imagined scenarios and really pull them through into something that makes a really rich visual and, and sonic and sensory experience on the page for you.

, I think one of the coolest forms of poetry that has been coined by Jericho Brown is the duplex poem. And the duplex is effectively a poem that is split right down the middle of the page and it can be read as only the left side of the page, as only the right side of the page, or both concurrently as a whole poem.

, I've done that with songs before and I've pasted the lyrics to something, written my responses and, and made it work. I think you have a whole wealth of things to choose from that can almost seem like writing outside of your [00:29:00] poetry. , poetic exercises are Some of the best kind of prompts and, experiences in order to afford you that sense of creativity outside of, you know, the things that you usually write, whether that's, write a poem about the chair in front of you.

Doesn't have to be good. It just has to get you writing.

Joe: Well, Frank Ocean, if you're listening, ,

soon that, yeah, get on the podcast. I'm sure soon there'll be a Frank Ocean song after a Maiya Dunbar winner poem as it should I don't have a huge amount to add and you're far better versed in this than me, but. I think there are some people out there who might want to get into poetry, who might think that they don't have something worth saying. And I think the way that I've always conceived of poetry is that poetry reflects life. And life is not just moments of great pain or anguish or sorrow or joy. So, write something mundane, but write it beautifully. 

Maiya: I think that's a, that's a lovely piece of advice. And. You can draw inspiration from anything, every experience is a poetic experience if you learn how to write it down.

Following on from that, [00:30:00] Obviously, you have the view of the writer and, and their intentions. One of our listeners has asked, What is the role of the critic in the poetry world?

Joe: well, I suppose One thing that would be beneficial for listeners is if we just do a quick explainer on what we mean by critic and how that might be different to reviewer, for instance. So, you know, a reviewer is somebody that you might find writing about a collection in a newspaper or magazine or blog, in which they are, they're saying what they think, they're giving their view, they're telling us whether it's worth buying, etc, etc. Critic is something a little bit different. Critic tends to mean something, a little more academic in its scope. It might be thinking about the form of the poem, might be thinking about where it exists in relation to other poems, and these are the things we tend to encounter in academic institutions.

So both Maiya and I , have studied English at university , and studied literature in our master's degrees. And we spend a lot of time reading the work of critics about poems, both contemporary, but also much older. Effectively, critics contribute to the conversation. You know, the poetic world [00:31:00] is, if we think of it, is this continually evolving conversation.

Critics have a voice in that conversation. They help shape certain schools of thought. A lot of the same problems that exist in poetic award ceremonies and awards are also existing critics.

The idea that these very influential voices are often slightly removed from normal life, if you will. And they exist in certain institutions, and they write for certain publications, and they have huge influence in the world of poetry and art. Historically that has been a place of privilege. I think the role of critic is changing. I think with the advent of the internet, with the rise of social media, the way we engage with art has become a lot more democratic, and I think that we are reaching for those kind of definitive voices less, but they still have a hugely significant role, especially within academia.

But, you know, what do you think, Maiya? Have you had any encounters with critics that you'd like to share with us?

Maiya: Very much so. I have had my encounters with critics. In fact, my entire master's dissertation was written [00:32:00] in disagreement, , with a critic who shall not be named. , and I remember being so scared that they were going to find it somehow and like respond to it, obviously in what world would that happen?

, but effectively that's how I understand the function of critics is that they're someone to respond to. They're someone to react to. And. I know a lot of our listeners have kind of been asking questions along the lines of how do I approach analysing a poem? It's very complicated if you don't necessarily know all the poetic terms or all of the, , popular motifs that would come up.

My recommendation is to genuinely look at a poem, look at someone who has critiqued it, and see if you agree. If you don't agree, you're already starting the process of your own criticism there. Critics serve an incredible function within poetic conversation in that You don't necessarily have to agree with them, you don't have to believe that they're saying the right thing, but what they can do is educate and inform you about context you might not [00:33:00] have known, or link them to other poets who you might not have even considered in your analysis.

I absolutely think that as someone who is maybe just launching into the poetic sphere, just learning how to analyse, a really useful tool to have. to read other people who have critiqued the poems that you're looking at. , it's a fascinating, , dichotomy to have when you actually don't agree with a prominent critic. So I'd always applaud the role of a critic.

Joe: Think it's also important to mention the fact that historically these things have not necessarily been disparate. The poet as critic is a sort of a very long standing position that people hold. You know, who better to talk about the work of other poets than poets themselves? They're often kind of viewed as the bad guys of the poetic world, critics, because even their name suggests that they are going to be sort of critical. Cool. of the work they encounter, but there have been some hugely influential critics , you know, Helen Vendler, who passed away recently, and Harold Bloom.

These people can have huge impacts, which are largely positive on the poetic [00:34:00] world, so we're not anti critic, we promise.

Maiya: Of course not. And, As you said earlier, you know, poems don't exist in a vacuum. They are constantly in discussion or in relation to other people, other places, other things. The poet can write a poem with their original intention. The critic can help to position that intention, position how it's been received by people, and you as a reader are there and willing to receive it in a completely different way. 

Joe: And we've just got time for one more question. But before I do, I'm just going to remind our listeners that if you want to make sure that your question gets answered in future episodes, you can sign up for a Poetry+ membership at poemanalysis.com. Just one of many member benefits. So, Maiya, we've got a question here which is about nature poetry, the person asking this question would simply like to know, what nature poetry have you enjoyed and would you like to recommend any?

Maiya: I'm actually going to call back to someone I mentioned earlier in the episode.

Ted Hughes, I think, has some incredible poems based on the natural world. As [00:35:00] someone who grew up in Yorkshire, the way that Ted Hughes evokes the Yorkshire countryside is second to none, in my opinion. For anyone who's listening to the podcast today, I definitely recommend going to Poemanalysis.com and checking out the PDF on Ted Hughes and his poems as well. The other person is actually a callback to one of our other episodes. In our Robert Frost podcast, I mentioned Jason Allen-Paisant, who has done an incredible collection called Thinking with Trees. In terms of a modern take on nature poetry, that's someone that I would recommend hands down.

What about you, Joe?

Joe: Well, I share your love of the Yorkshire countryside, and I think, again, a call back to someone I mentioned earlier on, I think Emily Bronte, and the way that, She depicted that landscape, the rawness of that landscape is always really special. But I think, this notion of nature poetry, it supposes that nature means one thing, whereas of course, we know that natural landscapes differ enormously depending on where you grew up, and how much access you had, whether you grew up, whether nature to you [00:36:00] meant the park in the city where you grew up, or whether you grew up in a very rural area.

So, I think , the nature poetry that speaks to me are the poems that speak to landscapes with which I have familiarity. So, , I've got lots of relatives in Ireland, so again, calling back to an earlier episode, our episode on Seamus Heaney's digging, , the way that Seamus Heaney portrays the Irish landscape has always really resonated with me. , and I also have a lot of family in Spain, , and the way that one of my great poetic loves, Federico García Lorca, Depicts the sort of that arid heat of southern Spain and the way in which nature is so emotionally charged, I think is, is just absolutely stunning. So there is loads of great nature poetry out there.

But what I would advise all of our listeners to go and do is seek out those who've written about landscapes and natural scenes that you know, and you have personal relationships with, because there's nothing like finding one that speaks to that experience.

Maiya: I think that's a great piece of advice , and I'm so excited for people to discover that.

So, unfortunately, that's all we have time for today. I hope we have answered some of your [00:37:00] questions. As Joe said earlier, our next episode is going to be on the ancient Greek poet Sappho, well known for her lyric poetry and often read in tandem with the epic poet Homer. Now, Sappho has often been called the 10th Muse, so I'm very excited to talk about her.

Joe: Yeah, I can't wait to have that conversation with you the next time, Maiya, but for now, it's goodbye from me.

Maiya: And goodbye from me and the whole team at Poemanalysis.com.